The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I've never had a Pastor who cared enough for my soul to minister to me. But they sure did take my money pretty quick.

Wow. You must have had some really lousy pastors.

[AreYouReady?]

Not wanting to bash any particular pastor, so I won't name any names, but my first UPC pastor was a bully in the pulpit and cheated on his wife. When my husband and I married, we left there and went to another church.

The second pastor pretty much ruled his congregation...whatever he said went his way. As I posted here when I first signed up, I am opinionated and if I have a problem with anything, I will speak up to see if anything can be changed to make it better. He misunderstood my motives and did not like my candor. Then pretty soon, I found that very few in that particular church would talk to me anymore. Later, when I had a serious bout of depression, my husband would beg him to come to visit with me, but he refused to come to minister to me. This went on for a year or so and this was the church that continued to cash my tithe check even though I did not attend anymore. Yes, that is how ingrained the tithing doctrine was in me at that time. I still sent my tithes even though I was incapacitated with depression. There were many things that happened in both churches, clicks, favoritism etc that years of enduring that left a bad taste in my mouth. I wanted to live for Christ but I was becoming bitter...I saw that bitterness was creeping into my life and I knew that bitterness is a destroyer. It was better to remove myself from the situation so that I could heal.

After that, I made a mistake and went to a church pastored by his grandson-in-law. Of course, their version of what they disliked me over followed me there and I did not have a snowball's chance in hades to find a church home there.

But, and I apologize for forgetting about my fourth pastor and his wife. They were super. They also received a phone call about me and what the other "pastors" thought, but they had spiritual fortitude to listen to my side and realize that all of that was a misunderstanding. She really tried to make me feel welcomed and would call me on the phone to make sure I was ok. By that time though I was so discouraged with UPC that I left. I did make sure that Pastor's wife understood that my not coming to their church had nothing to do with them.
All that was 20 years ago. It was something I had to work out between Christ and myself.

[Titus2woman]

We have belonged to two UPC churches. The first belonged to a very dictatorial pastor. It is known as the strictest church in our district and proud of it. We loved our church family but struggled with the many problems of the church regarding all the rules and regulations. Our pastor was an older fellow with many grown sons, all but one preachers. There was a blatant double standard when it came to his own family as each and every one of his sons had disqualified himself for ministry by his conduct but yet all continued to preach, even at our church. The expectation is that one of them will eventually take the church so the very aged pastor continues to hold on at pushing 80, we believe only to try to see one of them 'inherit'. When one of them joined the paid staff full time we were sure that the change was near and there was a lot of upset for us and many of our friends. Most of the people that we know who belong to that church say they would leave if any of 'the boys' were to pastor there.

So the whole idea of a church being a mini-kingdom to be inherited even over the objections of those who attend and support it got us doing what we do with all difficult situations, looking to our bible. This led to a whole study about who should actually pastor a church... And boy-howdy were we surprised to learn the real answer was that no single man should be shepherding a flock of hundreds of families!

Still wanting to be a part of the church system and the UPC in particular we began thinking a smaller church might be the answer. And being convicted about driving past a smaller oneness church to attend the BIG church farther away. You know- the one with more people 'like us' made us decide to change churches.

We thought in terms of 'moving our membership'- an idea left over from our Baptist upbringing, because anyone raised in Pentecost knows full well that you do not change churches without your pastors permission. Knowing we would never get that permission from our pastor, we made the break and changed churches without it to the smaller church. We were accepted by the smaller church which is not fellowshipped by the bigger church, being looked at as a weaker church by the ministry of the big church.

This changing churches was the equivalent of a mortal sin to those from our old church and so we thought we had done something huge and revolutionary.... We were new in our present church but quickly realized that not much besides the faces had changed. Sensing the Lord about to move us on yet again did not get deeply involved but rather began pulling back. We wrote a devotional for the weekly church bulletin for a year but each time the Lord impressed on us to speak the truth in love we held back.
Finally we could not take it anymore and went to see the pastor. I am not sure what we expected except for anything but what we got... We were prepared for an argument, for him to break out every possible opposing scripture, for him to say find another church home if you don't agree with how we do it here (our first pastor loved to preach 'my way or the highway') What we got was sadder than we ever imagined... He said he KNEW... KNEW we were right, that there is no love in the church, but that people expect to find church a certain way and if he does not give them what they want they will scatter. I am not sure he even saw his own deep lack of faith but there it was, glaring... staring at us... and this was the 'MAN OF GOD' who was leading us.

Do I think he loves God? yes. Do I think he prays? definitely. Fasts? sure does. Believes he is doing the right thing? absolutely! Yes and amen. But what were we to do with this new piece of the puzzle? We could either try to dig down deep and help these people or we could get out. We are still sitting on that fence and believe me fence sitting leaves one very sore. We are going to one service a week at this point, still paying the tithe and praying like crazy for an answer... I think our church family feels we are backslid... our first church family already believed that when we left for a 'weaker' church... Really I am not sure we can help them or that they want our help.

So yes there are all kinds of pastors... good ones, bad ones... even lost ones...

[AreYouReady?]

I've always had a problem with churches being "handed down" to family members like it was a business. The church is supposed to be the body of Christ made up of people, not a dictatorship over the people to hand them over to son's and daughters like rulers.

However, it's not always the pastor's fault either. People don't like change. They don't want a preacher from somewhere else that may be on fire for God or bring out different perspectives of scriptures.

The second church we went to is now well on the way to it's third generation of family pastors.

Hey...maybe that was why a bad report followed me because I did not ask the pastor's permission to go to another church? I did not even discuss it with him.
Gee...maybe I finally have an understanding after all these years why gossip followed me.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I've always had a problem with churches being "handed down" to family members like it was a business. The church is supposed to be the body of Christ made up of people, not a dictatorship over the people to hand them over to son's and daughters like rulers.

However, it's not always the pastor's fault either. People don't like change. They don't want a preacher from somewhere else that may be on fire for God or bring out different perspectives of scriptures.

The second church we went to is now well on the way to it's third generation of family pastors.

Hey...maybe that was why a bad report followed me because I did not ask the pastor's permission to go to another church? I did not even discuss it with him.
Gee...maybe I finally have an understanding after all these years why gossip followed me.

I am really way past believing in a single person pastoring a church period. There needs to be oversight, the Baptists have it right there. Elders are needed to keep any one man from making a church large or small his kingdom. Many UPC preachers are just mini-popes who believe that they 'hear from God' in a way that others do not and can not. The whole 'man of God' thing is wrong.

I would love a house church situation and right now that is where we are leaning. My husband is a godly man and I know he has my best interests at heart in all things. He is worthy of my loyalty where ever he leads us and it is he who will make the decision about where we will worship but I know that my input is sought and is valued.

I found another board for apostolics who home church and while it is not very active it has some amazing information. Most of what I posted above I originally wrote to share there. I do appreciate some of the minds here though and the fact that many/most here are successfully involved in brick and mortar churches. I am not looking to completely discount that as a possibility, especially if we can find something akin to what Aquila has discussed with a combination of both. But living in the home town of the largest prosperity church in the country I am very sure of what I don't want...

[Scott Hutchinson]

Of course one should give and support the local church,but there is a difference between OT. tithing and grace giving.But alot of preachers feel that if you don't hold the tenth over the people they won't give.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I've never had a Pastor who cared enough for my soul to minister to me. But they sure did take my money pretty quick.

Yeah, what AQP said. I had a pastor who told me to my face I'd go to hell for not paying tithes. He didn't answer any of my agruments and instead just said I was being rebellious, but beside that disagreement our relationship was good and endured until his death. I have no doubt he cared greatly for me, he just was woefully unstudies on the subject and accepted the teaching that was passed on to him without doing any additional research.

I strongly disagree with my former pastor on this topic, bu I have no doubt he cared and continues to care about me. I been out of that church 6 months,but atil pray for him, his family and the church almost daily.

I believe we ought to speak out against false doctrine and error wherever we see it. When one speaks from the pulpit wthey should be accountable for what they say. I don't think we give preachers a pass just because we are friends with them.

BUT

Such blanket statements cause me a slight bit of regret for being so vocal on the topic. What I want is to discuss the actual teachings and quitefrankly dismantle the unbiblical theology. I don't want to stir up people who are mad at former pastors. Not necessarily accusing you of that AYR, just want to keep the focus on the doctrinal content.

[Jason B]

BUMP

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Who said it is not important. What is important is this is being taught in "Bible believing" churches and it is a shame. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is prosperity gospel no matter how much one tries to deny it.

"You gotta put your tithe first. now this is not just me trying to get your money, its God trying to get your money. Because if God can get your money he's got your life. If he can get your money he has your heart. Where your treasure is so will your heart follow. Just like Elijah and the widow. I'm gonna tell you there would have been alot of folks offended by the Elijah ministries incorporated. Because he dared tell a little widow woman who was as poor as she could be, and was about to die, last meal before her and her son die. And that preacher. That money grubbin, money hungry preacher, looked at her and said feed me first. But Elijah understood something powerful, if he could get her to feed him, God was obligated to her. If he could get her to feed him, they were going to ocme into a partnership here. Because Jesus said however you receive the ones I send is how you recieve me. You give to a prophet a cup of cold water, you get a prophets reward. So Elijah knows God's gonna take are of him, because he's God's man. So he's saying to the little widow, give it to me first....

Brothers and sisters look at me. I'm the man of God in your life. The tithe that you pay is what I eat my bread from. My family and I survive. And so when you tithe you're entering into partnership, not just with me, but your entering into partnership with God. When you bring your tithe you're entering into an agreement....When you bring your tithe you're entering into a communication with me. Into a partnership with me as your pastor. And what happens is God's going to take care of me. He called me to this place. He put me here and he's going to pay my bills, He's always done it, God's been good to me. But here's what happens when you take a pledge to enter into partnership with God by tithing for the support of the ministry that feeds you spiritual bread. Paul said if we have sown to you spiritual things, is it any great thing that we reap your carnal? i like the way he said that without stuttering. He didn't even blink. He wasn't the least bit embarrassed. He wasn't like I often have been, struggling with defensiveness about asking people for money. Paul didn't seem nervous at all. He just said if I've sown to you spiritual things, how much more valuable, Paul is saying, are the spiritual things that I have given you in terms of the carnal things that I could ask for in return?

Really, lets talk about whose getting the fair end of the deal here. Whose getting something more valuable? You're receiving the Word of God, all I'm gettin' is gold. Gold that is cankered and deteriorates and corrupts. All I'm getting out of the deal is money. Well I hope I'm getting more than that, I hope I'm getting your loyalty and all kinds of other things. But in this exchange whose getting the more valuable thing?"

"So we bring our tithe first so that you can enter into a partnership with God. When you bring your tithe and you bring your offering and you bring your commitment you are entering into an agreement with me. And when you enter into an agreement with me, you've got God on your side. Because now you've brought a prophet a cup of cold water and now you're about to step into a prohets reward. Now see thats been terribly distorted by the TV preachers, and the prosperity gospel guys. They've turned that into nothing but just a way to rip people off and get money from people when they are offering nothing in return. But when you do it right, it works." (end quote)

[AreYouReady?]

Sorry. Not trying to derail your thread. I was just responding to someone else's post to me several times.


BUMP

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Ok, so let's go to how the tithe is Biblically defined.

Tithes in the Old Testament was not money. It was 1/10 of the land, whether of the seed or of the fruit of the tree.

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
(Leviticus 27:30)

And it was the tenth animal of the herd under the rod.

And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
(Leviticus 27:32)

The Levites received the tithe because they had NO land inheritance. The other tribes gave a tenth of the increase of the land and of the herd once every three (3) years.

1The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
(Deuterotomy 18:1-2)


At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
(Deuteronomy 14:28)

**Notice...this is not going into the storehouse...it is at the gate.**

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
(Deuteronomy 26:12)


Come to Beth–el, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:
(Amos 4:4)


If today's tithe preacher wants to preach tithe...then perhaps he ought to receive the true tithe that God sanctioned...food and animals, wine, corn etc. but one thing..he better make sure he is a Levite before he receives the tithe, as the Levites were the only ones scripturally allowed to receive the tithe.

While God did not make tithing a difficult thing for any of the Israelites to give, (a tenth of the increase every three years) today's tithe preacher wants an unscriptural tithe. They want 10% of all you earn plus offerings and they want it every week or as often as you got paid! The Israelites did not live under such a burden. There seems to be more freedom under the law than what today's tithe preachers teach. There is no scriptural basis for a money tithe either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Todays tithe preacher also owns land and very little (in most cases) of the tithe goes to the stranger, the oppressed, the widow. As one person here put it...it goes to pay for a big church, paved parking lots, utilities etc. Perhaps it goes to a vacation house on a lake, as some preachers in my region own. Or maybe it goes to two brand new SUVs for both him and his wife, while the church members drive old cars.

Now if one wants to delve deeper as to why the people are pushed to "tithe", check out to see if your church is considered to be a 501 (c) (3) Corporation.
If you have financial business meetings every year, then most likely your church is considered a corporation. Hmmmmm....is this what Jesus has in mind when He comes for His bride?

While you are at it, look up the origins of the Federal Reserve to gain a better understanding of what our money is. It is a Federal Reserve Note. It is legal tender but, it is not silver or gold, which is Constitutionally lawful money. Don't believe me? Try paying your traffic fines or taxes with gold or silver. They won't take it. You have to convert any gold or silver into Federal Reserve Notes.

Preachers all the time push tithes using their strongest (fear) doctrine Malachi Chapter 3. This is one of the most misunderstood scriptures of all time. And it is used to deceive people.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yeah, what AQP said. I had a pastor who told me to my face I'd go to hell for not paying tithes. He didn't answer any of my agruments and instead just said I was being rebellious, but beside that disagreement our relationship was good and endured until his death. I have no doubt he cared greatly for me, he just was woefully unstudies on the subject and accepted the teaching that was passed on to him without doing any additional research.I strongly disagree with my former pastor on this topic, bu I have no doubt he cared and continues to care about me. I been out of that church 6 months,but atil pray for him, his family and the church almost daily.

I believe we ought to speak out against false doctrine and error wherever we see it. When one speaks from the pulpit wthey should be accountable for what they say. I don't think we give preachers a pass just because we are friends with them.

BUT

Such blanket statements cause me a slight bit of regret for being so vocal on the topic. What I want is to discuss the actual teachings and quitefrankly dismantle the unbiblical theology. I don't want to stir up people who are mad at former pastors. Not necessarily accusing you of that AYR, just want to keep the focus on the doctrinal content.

Yeah. I know this situation well. My Pastor isn;t dead, but we have had the same conversation. If you tithe you are going to hell. I gave him not only the vast amount of scriptural proof that tithing isn't a legit Christian doctrine, but showed him the historical FACT that tithing wasn't preached by the Apostles or their successors. That is was centuries later before it even made it into any Christian writing. It wasn't allowed until Charlamange in 777. It didn't matter. I was wrong, he was right, tithing was solid doctrine.

Then I was informed that I was "not as smart as I think I am" and that "before I even get to the foot of the mountain" he had already been to the peak and back. That was his way of letting me know he was spiritually and intellectually superior to me I guess.

He's still a really good Pastor and a great guy. I respect him and love im. He is, as many are, simply not well versed on the subject and refuses to get out of the box of what he was taught as Apostolic Truth, no matter how faulty it really is. Not that I know it all. I just know we are not infallible and we get some teachings DEAD WRONG. That should be corrected and people educated on the issues should be allowed to enlighten those who lack understanding.