Thou shalt murder?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

In the Apostolic Movement, we have hidden behind the Mask that we are the RIGHT ONES. ............................

To deny this, reveals only our fear to accept the Truth that error is in our midst, and that our Traditions supersede the FACTS.

hmmm, irony ? One movement hides behind a mask that they are right, which in your opinion is wrong......yet......all are to accept your opinion as being right.

And your different from everyone else...how exactly ?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

I’m not particularly well versed in Biblical hermeneutics, but I will share my personal thoughts about the subject. When reading the OT, one must keep in mind the vile and destructive nature that existed within some of these surrounding tribes. They were essentially cults. It is a bit naïve to think that the Israelites could “love” them into better people. “Godly influence” was unrealistic. In a sense, it truly was kill or be killed. See (2 Kings 16:1-3) (2 Kings 21:6) (2 Kings 23:10) (Jeremiah 3:24) (Deuteronomy 12:31) (Ezekiel 23:39) I will say this though, I sincerely believe that it was God’s ultimate design for Abraham’s seed, and by extension, the nation of Israel, to gather (not kill) people unto his purpose. We know God was often quite capable and willing to graft Gentiles into his master plan. (Joshua 6:23) (Ruth 1:22). I draw a line when considering God’s corporate punishments, as I do not presume to understand God’s reasoning and mind. It would be arrogant on my part to think that I could comprehend the beginning from the ending. If I did, it would effectively eliminate my need for faith.

You say there was not much difference between then and today. I disagree. Today we enjoy more understanding of the nature of God and morality than the OT characters of the Bible. Remember, (and you even said it yourself), they did not have the “Bible” as we know it, or Immanuel Kant’s philosophical contributions on logical conclusions to moral maxims and “The Golden Rule.” Society was rather primitive compared to today’s standards. Certainly, the Apostle Paul was aware of the contrasting social dynamics when he preached on Mars Hill (Acts 17:26-31). Our Brother Paul also eloquently noted the “better” parts of the New Covenant versus the Old one in the book of Hebrews.

I guess what I’m trying to say, is that many of these things are better understood contextually, in synergy with our own life experience and learning. Did God speak to OT prophets? I believe he did. Many of their prophecies bear out the truth. How do you differentiate the ones who told the truth from the ones who didn't?

In today's World/Society, there are many Cults or Tribes of people that could be classified as vile, destructive, and demonic. Does this qualify them for Genocide?

My wife and I spent 2 years pastoring in an Indian Village off the coast of Southeast Alaska. This was a great learning "Experience". The White Man approached these people just over 100 years ago, making many assumptions as to their Culture and lifestyle. I became close to some of the Chiefs, and they shared with me what happened to them.

The White Man brought disease, ideas, stole their land and slaughtered them. They were forced to change, and Christians came to this village teaching the children to abandon the language and Culture they had always known. They brought in the Bible, a Book they had never seen before, and teachings completely foreign to their people. They wore regalia and danced, singing to the Great Spirit, and did many other things I didn’t understand at first, but as time went by I saw a great people with great passion.

I saw old photos of their Tribe, and many could assume they were a Cult. I disagree with the many things we did to the Indian people throughout all of America. Many atrocities (genocides) were done to them, and they were lied to and given many false promises by this new Christian Nation. There are scores of books on this subject and many documentaries that reveal the blatant truth, something we don’t have concerning Amalek.

We also helped many of these people, and the love of God has done much to help us understand them, and them us. These people were considered primitive and very different than us, and many considered them demon possessed and vile in what they did. But from my own experience, they are a good people with families and a Culture that could teach us a few things about respect. Were they perfect? No, and neither are we. Were they like the Amalekites? Very possible; no Bible, isolated, and subject to establish their own Law and Order.

So, does this qualify the Tlingit Tribe for annihilation? Genocide? Some who came to this Country many years ago felt this was the answer. But the one thing that has never changed; they are PEOPLE! They are SOULS! They are families, with children! To kill them only enraged them, but to love them we make the World a better place, and, please our Creator.

Here is a small part of an article concerning Indian Atrocity/Genocide;

"In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead. Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of many accounts of the horrors that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous population: hanging them en mass, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog feed, and other horrid cruelties. The works of Las Casas are often omitted from popular American history books and courses because Columbus is considered a hero by many, even today.

Mass killing did not cease, however, after Columbus departed. Expansion of the European colonies led to similar genocides. "Indian Removal" policy was put into action to clear the land for white settlers. Methods for the removal included slaughter of villages by the military and also biological warfare. High death rates resulted from forced marches to relocate the Indians.

The Removal Act of 1830 set into motion a series of events which led to the "Trail of Tears" in 1838, a forced march of the Cherokees, resulting in the destruction of most of the Cherokee population." The concentration of American Indians in small geographic areas, and the scattering of them from their homelands, caused increased death, primarily because of associated military actions, disease, starvation, extremely harsh conditions during the moves, and the resulting destruction of ways of life."

Here is the link for further reading;

http://iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/...americans.html

On the subject of placing blame on God for Amalek. We must always remember and consider, man wrote this down as something that God commanded and justified. This is bold theology, but it is the TRUTH. If man recorded it, the potential for flaw is there. It’s very easy to label something as “God Said” with the few strokes of a pen, but in all honesty we must still verify and validate by experience.

Thanks Brother, for your response.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by scotty

hmmm, irony ? One movement hides behind a mask that they are right, which in your opinion is wrong......yet......all are to accept your opinion as being right.

And your different from everyone else...how exactly ?

Did I say that you/all are to accept my opinion?

You are more than welcome to rebuke my idea with yours. I'm searching, and I hope you are to.

This Forum has been a blessing to all of us who are allowed to express what we see and feel as far as Religion is concerned, where our Ideas can be challenged. Pushing the "Submit Reply" button gives others the chance to shout back.

Please, pull the mask away from my face if you see one and thanks for the shout.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Did I say that you/all are to accept my opinion?

You are more than welcome to rebuke my idea with yours. I'm searching, and I hope you are to.

This Forum has been a blessing to all of us who are allowed to express what we see and feel as far as Religion is concerned, where our Ideas can be challenged. Pushing the "Submit Reply" button gives others the chance to shout back.

Please, pull the mask away from my face if you see one and thanks for the shout.

Not my point, point was to this statement you made.

To deny this, reveals only our fear to accept the Truth that error is in our midst, and that our Traditions supersede the FACTS.

It seems as if your saying that to deny your point of view means the rest of us are in "fear of accepting the Truth" as you see it.

I am comfortable with my point of view as being the truth as per my experience and studies. I just find it humorous at times when one makes a statement that amounts to a cloak of trying to say everyone else is wrong. This may not have been your intentions, if not then I withdraw.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

I’m not particularly well versed in Biblical hermeneutics, but I will share my personal thoughts about the subject. When reading the OT, one must keep in mind the vile and destructive nature that existed within some of these surrounding tribes. They were essentially cults. It is a bit naïve to think that the Israelites could “love” them into better people. “Godly influence” was unrealistic. In a sense, it truly was kill or be killed. See (2 Kings 16:1-3) (2 Kings 21:6) (2 Kings 23:10) (Jeremiah 3:24) (Deuteronomy 12:31) (Ezekiel 23:39) I will say this though, I sincerely believe that it was God’s ultimate design for Abraham’s seed, and by extension, the nation of Israel, to gather (not kill) people unto his purpose. We know God was often quite capable and willing to graft Gentiles into his master plan. (Joshua 6:23) (Ruth 1:22). I draw a line when considering God’s corporate punishments, as I do not presume to understand God’s reasoning and mind. It would be arrogant on my part to think that I could comprehend the beginning from the ending. If I did, it would effectively eliminate my need for faith.

You say there was not much difference between then and today. I disagree. Today we enjoy more understanding of the nature of God and morality than the OT characters of the Bible. Remember, (and you even said it yourself), they did not have the “Bible” as we know it, or Immanuel Kant’s philosophical contributions on logical conclusions to moral maxims and “The Golden Rule.” Society was rather primitive compared to today’s standards. Certainly, the Apostle Paul was aware of the contrasting social dynamics when he preached on Mars Hill (Acts 17:26-31). Our Brother Paul also eloquently noted the “better” parts of the New Covenant versus the Old one in the book of Hebrews.

I guess what I’m trying to say, is that many of these things are better understood contextually, in synergy with our own life experience and learning. Did God speak to OT prophets? I believe he did. Many of their prophecies bear out the truth. How do you differentiate the ones who told the truth from the ones who didn't?

I agree with the underlined statement I have come to the idea that was God'd plan from the begining not just one race of people. The Jew I believe the plan of God was that he expected the Isrealites to be the light as the church is to be the light and change the world for the better. My how we have failed. Better get to work!!!!

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Have we forgotten Jim Jones & David Koresh? .....etc.

I don't think you can compare Jim Jones & David Koresh. Samuel was the prophet of the Isrealite's and they were commanded to kill the Amalekites. Jim Jones turned on his own people. Also if all you know of these two events is what the main stream media has presented you might be missing the bigger picture. When you read the accounts from people that were actually there you get a different perspective. Like how cool-aid can produce bullet holes.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Kae

I don't think you can compare Jim Jones & David Koresh. Samuel was the prophet of the Isrealite's and they were commanded to kill the Amalekites. Jim Jones turned on his own people. Also if all you know of these two events is what the main stream media has presented you might be missing the bigger picture. When you read the accounts from people that were actually there you get a different perspective. Like how cool-aid can produce bullet holes.

What if it can be proven the Amalekites were decendents of Esau? Esau was Jacob's (Israel's) brother. Esau's grandson was Amalek.

Genesis 36:12

This would mean, they killed their own people.