Should we teach others to rebel against Standards?

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

We could suppose a lot of things. But the simple fact is follow the law of the land and don't be found as a transgressor. But if the law is contrary to the ordinances of God don't do it. You don't like standards, don't follow them. Find a church that doesn't enforce them they are everywhere! If it doesn't come from your heart you might as well not do it anyway, because in the end your only going to do whats in your heart anyway.

Got questions.org is a seventh day adventist website. That puts them in the likes of Ellen G. White and Dave Koresh, so that should say enough.

And now Ultra-cons are Pharasees huh? Well I guess the liberals would be the Saducees then huh? Dont believe fat meat is greasy, don't believe in deliverance from sin, the power of God, or anything else. Nothing but sloppy agape.. "If your belief is not able to transform you, it's not the true gospel!" Simple and plain!

Ah, so only the UPCI, and specifically only elder UPCI that follow the standards and uphold the values of the Republican party are the actual arbitors of all scripture truth? The Adventists, and other Protestant groups that may have a measure of truth, but lack the oneness gospel, and babtism in Jesus name are in all other things that may be correct - suspect- for which you bring up named examples of way out there to support your statement.
Cute, I supose then I should beleive every word of the pastor I know of in Michigan that throws song books at people who have hair he disagrees with, forced victory marches are also part of his game. Calling a young mans new jacket gay because he disapproves of the color, then implying the man must also be gay ......these are the work of a true Christian? The Apostolic/Pentecostal tradition has its share of nuts too, but to call the pope out for his part in spreading heresy, is OK, calling out the pastor in Michigan is rebellion I suppose. Hmmmm

And since the only rightous government that will ever be on earth will be in the 1000 years Christ reigns after the trib, that I choose to stand for none on earth now, a citizen only of my own domain, I'm surely a rebel withoutca cause even more. Lol......whateva

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Ah, so only the UPCI, and specifically only elder UPCI that follow the standards and uphold the values of the Republican party are the actual arbitors of all scripture truth? The Adventists, and other Protestant groups that may have a measure of truth, but lack the oneness gospel, and babtism in Jesus name are in all other things that may be correct - suspect- for which you bring up named examples of way out there to support your statement.
Cute, I supose then I should beleive every word of the pastor I know of in Michigan that throws song books at people who have hair he disagrees with, forced victory marches are also part of his game. Calling a young mans new jacket gay because he disapproves of the color, then implying the man must also be gay ......these are the work of a true Christian? The Apostolic/Pentecostal tradition has its share of nuts too, but to call the pope out for his part in spreading heresy, is OK, calling out the pastor in Michigan is rebellion I suppose. Hmmmm

And since the only rightous government that will ever be on earth will be in the 1000 years Christ reigns after the trib, that I choose to stand for none on earth now, a citizen only of my own domain, I'm surely a rebel withoutca cause even more. Lol......whateva

Do what? All your words not mine. That guys out of line, but all I can say is they should find a new church. And I'm not in support of the UPCI as a organization, maybe of old, but not today anyway.

You created all these crazy scenarios (straw men really) and acted like I said anything against these extreme situations you keep bringing up.

Simple fact is this. If something is illegal by law that is not immoral being against what God sets forth, scripture mandates you follow it. Now if you don't want to that's fine, that's your choice not mine. But while your in this room speaking non sense I'm going to speak up, to let you know I don't agree. Even show you why I don't agree. The rest is up to you.

If you go to a church with a Pastor as you described, that's ridiculous. Although, all the rest of the stuff you said was exteme trying to prove a point, so that story probably falls in the same line. People take things and blow them out of proportion, and then want people to back up what they are saying. If you don't like standards go to a church that doesn't preach them. But I can tell you don't go to a church at all, and all these things your saying is your reason you don't am I correct?

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Do what? All your words not mine. That guys out of line, but all I can say is they should find a new church. And I'm not in support of the UPCI as a organization, maybe of old, but not today anyway.

You created all these crazy scenarios (straw men really) and acted like I said anything against these extreme situations you keep bringing up.

Simple fact is this. If something is illegal by law that is not immoral being against what God sets forth, scripture mandates you follow it. Now if you don't want to that's fine, that's your choice not mine. But while your in this room speaking non sense I'm going to speak up, to let you know I don't agree. Even show you why I don't agree. The rest is up to you.

If you go to a church with a Pastor as you described, that's ridiculous. Although, all the rest of the stuff you said was exteme trying to prove a point, so that story probably falls in the same line. People take things and blow them out of proportion, and then want people to back up what they are saying. If you don't like standards go to a church that doesn't preach them. But I can tell you don't go to a church at all, and all these things your saying is your reason you don't am I correct?

Nope.

Go to church every Sunday.

Ran from the building where the nutcase that throws stuff is. Never went back. A freind of mine, dear sister for most of my life, in fact went muslim over the jacket incident, as well as the rather over the top adoration of old families that have a long history of being pastors in the UPCI. She was married into one, that turned into a disaster. Altogether too much for her so she went to the roots of her Lebonese heritage. Her Dad was a UPC pastor , and also the pastor who baptized me. He seems disallusioned with the UPC as well. No longer pastors.

I took issue not with what you said entirely, but with the fact that you defend it with one verse that does not say what you said....that being that there are exclusion from the verse for ungodly law... you have still not provided the verse for the exclusion, so Im still asking about it.
All of the things I mentioned as reflections of my questions are things which have actually happened. And relate to the single verse issue I have with your statement.

Now - you like many other UPC or old line holiness folks, appear to be taking the line that I must be a bitter ex-churchy for continuing to press. Seems it goes this way with the standards. If I recall that is the subject of the OP. When pressed into a point where you must admit that your beleif is in tradition not biblical entirely, folks respond with .."you must be in rebellion".....he/she left the "holiness" church to go somewhere more in line with their beleif. "Must be backslid", lets all talk about em behind their backs....

I have one or two small issues with my current church, but folk like you will only make it worse if I try to adjust the standards to allow me to minister in my manor, not in what I find to be now either fakery or pride.

I may have to find another church if my discussion with my pastor is met by the same ridicule you and other cons here dish out.

I do wonder what is implied by what appears to be a change of support for the UPCI on your part?

[votivesoul]

Making a single universal theory out of Romans 13 is a bad idea, in my opinion, because governments change or are different from one location to the next. What the hidden Christian in North Korea has to do versus what an American Christian gets to do, are two different things, for example.

Here in the USA, and really the "West", but elsewhere, too, we the people have the power of election and the ability to literally see laws change, or be interpreted differently by or through the judicial system.

This shows that in such a governmental structure, our laws are very mutable. But God's laws are not mutable. So what do I mean as it relates to Romans 13?

Here in WI I can write to and/or call my state legislature and even get a sit-down with the governor, perhaps, and attempt to sway public policy through personal lobbying of what I believe to be right, moral, ideas that best serves the interests of my home state.

But a universal theory of Romans 13 that has to be applied in one direction only would suggest me doing the above is tantamount to resisting the powers that be that were ordained by God, because by actively pursuing political and legislative changes, I am making a de facto claim that I believe that those currently in existence are wrong, and that the people in power who implemented them are likewise in the wrong, and so, will use whatever ability I have, up to and including my voting rights, to see the entire system brought down.

I may or may not succeed. But that is the whole thrust of what our government is supposed to be.

But that's also a built in resistance to the powers that be, since it is God and not man, that institutes governments and those who hold office in them.

So unless we are going to advocate total abstinence from political and governmental involvement (and maybe we should???) any involvement whatsoever could be construed as resisting the powers that be, because our very own system of government actively encourages it, thus demonstrating a revolt against what Romans 13 teaches, if there's only one universal theory being presented.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

I may have to find another church if my discussion with my pastor is met by the same ridicule you and other cons here dish out.

Goes both ways, by the way. (Not to mention the whole "liberal vs conservative" thing is way overblown...)

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Making a single universal theory out of Romans 13 is a bad idea, in my opinion, because governments change or are different from one location to the next. What the hidden Christian in North Korea has to do versus what an American Christian gets to do, are two different things, for example.

Here in the USA, and really the "West", but elsewhere, too, we the people have the power of election and the ability to literally see laws change, or be interpreted differently by or through the judicial system.

This shows that in such a governmental structure, our laws are very mutable. But God's laws are not mutable. So what do I mean as it relates to Romans 13?

Here in WI I can write to and/or call my state legislature and even get a sit-down with the governor, perhaps, and attempt to sway public policy through personal lobbying of what I believe to be right, moral, ideas that best serves the interests of my home state.

But a universal theory of Romans 13 that has to be applied in one direction only would suggest me doing the above is tantamount to resisting the powers that be that were ordained by God, because by actively pursuing political and legislative changes, I am making a de facto claim that I believe that those currently in existence are wrong, and that the people in power who implemented them are likewise in the wrong, and so, will use whatever ability I have, up to and including my voting rights, to see the entire system brought down.

I may or may not succeed. But that is the whole thrust of what our government is supposed to be.

But that's also a built in resistance to the powers that be, since it is God and not man, that institutes governments and those who hold office in them.

So unless we are going to advocate total abstinence from political and governmental involvement (and maybe we should???) any involvement whatsoever could be construed as resisting the powers that be, because our very own system of government actively encourages it, thus demonstrating a revolt against what Romans 13 teaches, if there's only one universal theory being presented.

I see what you are getting at, I referenced Romans 13 because I could interject my words, but what's the point if the Word of God is forever settled in Heaven? So I quoted the Word of God instead. What was being said is that it's ok to do illegal activities, as they are not bad in and of theirself. Which I do understand that line of thinking,. But Paul says something completely opposite in Romans 13:1-2.

Now, all I was saying is that if a law does not directly contradict the word of God you should follow it. If it does God's law is greater. I was saying only this period. What you are saying is true brother, and should be greatly considered.

Me personally I'm a felon I never voted, what I do is trust God. I don't put my vote forth especially in places 1 I don't know even who these people are, or what they are about. 2. Where I don't have full confidence in someone. I never have seen a candidate yet that fits that criteria. So in that I trust God. I may not agree and be submissive to the law of the land, but I keep the Spirit of obedience to it. (The Lord is working on me, He's not finished with me yet!!) So while I may not agree with it, I just do it because what's being said doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

But what I was saying isn't the only interpretation of Romans 13, because your right that could be something totally different somewhere else, and under different conditions. Although in America I believe mostly, we aren't faced with things that are contrary to the word and law of God, making it fit for us to not follow. But, in the case of Kim Davis and Homosexual marriage she was correct that clearly went against the Law of God, she stood against it. All I can say is good for her!

As people we look for reasons, to justify doing what we believe is best. "But even the wrath of man will yet praise God", that's such a beautiful truth out of the Word of God. It just let's me know, it's all in His hands. It let's me know that all these in a position of power, God has already took that into consideration. Whether for good or bad, and it will not hurt the plan of God. In the end it will yet, give Him praise. In that we should walk in liberty, knowing it's all in His hands!