I was mainly asking Truthseeker what his explanation was. It seems that people have a warped view of what sin is. They would say that if an evil thought comes to your mind (which the devil brings) and even if you rebuke it right away and not let it take root. They'll say that you're sinning. They'll say if you're tempted with evil (which the devil would do, since we are still in the this flesh) and even if you resist it, fight and don't fall into it, they'll say that you sinned.
There are people who would say that we can't be perfect, because we can accidentally trip ourselves while walking, or that we don't have the best singing voice ever, or our handwriting isn't the most beautiful. In other words, a lot of silly, natural, carnal definitions.
The bible says that Jesus was tempted in all ways like us, but yet without sin. It's the falling into temptations that is a sin.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
These verses were written to the born again believer. They were already "saved". Now, keeping one's body under subjection so as to not be cast out by other believers is related to sanctification, not salvation. In addition, so is diligently searching the soul for any root of bitterness.
I look at it like this... many people in Hell could be said to have been "saved". However, they failed the grace of God relating to their sanctification.
Also, sanctification isn't the application of traditions or man made rules. Nor is it applying any combination of OT laws. Sanctification is growing into the fulness of Christ's own image and likeness... becoming a living extention of Jesus in this darkened world. And this is not accomplished through the law. The law will only conform you into the image of ancient Israel. Traditions and man made rules of religion will only conform you into the image of that specific denomination or religion. We are seeking to have Christ formed in us. A living union of spirit with God Himself through Jesus.
Jesus boiled it all down to this...
Loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Then we are to demonstrate that love by loving others as ourselves.
He who loves his neighbour as himself has fulfilled the entire law, for the law was only designed to try to get Israel to do this in the context of their ancient culture. Too many people put the cart before the horse and say that the command to love (the Law of Christ) should lead one to follow the Ten Commandments or some other combination of laws. Wrong. The Ten Commandments and the entirety of all laws were intended to demonstrate God's demand to love others.
So... we're free of the law. We live by grace. We now sanctify ourselves by cultivating the love of Jesus in our hearts towards God and our fellow man. Biblical Christianity is therefore the most universal and applicable faith in the world and can be practiced in ANY cultural context.
Here's an example of how the Law is not intended to be rigidly applied under grace...
Let's say that you are sheltering Jews from Nazis in Nazi Germany. Suddenly a squad of Nazi soldiers comes to your door and enters your home. They ask you point blank, "Do you have any Jews hiding in this home? Yes or no?"
Now, the Law states, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Meaning, you aren't to lie. Do you tell the truth? Refrain from saying anything thus giving away that you have a Jewish family hiding in your home? Or... do you look them in the eye and say, "No. I have no Jews in my home."?
The law regarding lying was to protect one's integrity and the well being of others. So, to obey the law and allow a family to be murdered would be antithesis to the law's intention. Therefore, love would require that you protect them and leave the Nazi's ignorant of their presence. Yes, I'd vote that you lie in such a situation. God knows the heart and the intention of the deception. Just as David tricked the enemy into thinking he was insane when he wasn't. Just as Jacob tricked Isaac to secure his God given birth right.
That's my take on it. I know, it's an extreme example... but I think it reveals how a rigid application of the law... can be antithesis to the very spirit of the law.
These verses were written to the born again believer. They were already "saved". Now, keeping one's body under subjection so as to not be cast out by other believers is related to sanctification, not salvation. In addition, so is diligently searching the soul for any root of bitterness.
I look at it like this... many people in Hell could be said to have been "saved". However, they failed the grace of God relating to their sanctification.
Also, sanctification isn't the application of traditions or man made rules. Nor is it applying any combination of OT laws. Sanctification is growing into the fulness of Christ's own image and likeness... becoming a living extention of Jesus in this darkened world. And this is not accomplished through the law. The law will only conform you into the image of ancient Israel. Traditions and man made rules of religion will only conform you into the image of that specific denomination or religion. We are seeking to have Christ formed in us. A living union of spirit with God Himself through Jesus.
Jesus boiled it all down to this...
Loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Then we are to demonstrate that love by loving others as ourselves.
He who loves his neighbour as himself has fulfilled the entire law, for the law was only designed to try to get Israel to do this in the context of their ancient culture. Too many people put the cart before the horse and say that the command to love (the Law of Christ) should lead one to follow the Ten Commandments or some other combination of laws. Wrong. The Ten Commandments and the entirety of all laws were intended to demonstrate God's demand to love others.
So... we're free of the law. We live by grace. We now sanctify ourselves by cultivating the love of Jesus in our hearts towards God and our fellow man. Biblical Christianity is therefore the most universal and applicable faith in the world and can be practiced in ANY cultural context.
So are you saying that saved peopl go to hell or are you saying that you can lose your salvation?
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Present tense reality and actual possession.
G2192 ἔχω echo (ekh'-o) (including an alternate form scheo skheh'-o; (used in certain tenses only)) v.
1. to hold (such as possession, ability, continuity, relation, or condition)
{used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote}
[a primary verb]
Salvation in Scripture is in three tenses: past, present and future.
We have been saved from our sins.
We are being saved from the present dominion of sin in our lives, and
We shall be saved from the actual presence of sin.
I am a firm believer in the Finished Work of Christ and the reality that we are New Creations, the Righteousness of God In Christ. However, we are obligated to "walk in a manner worthy of your calling."
So your batting average for healing in 60-70%, and you batting average for salvation is 100%. Cool!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Here's an example of how the Law is not intended to be rigidly applied under grace...
Let's say that you are sheltering Jews from Nazis in Nazi Germany. Suddenly a squad of Nazi soldiers comes to your door and enters your home. They ask you point blank, "Do you have any Jews hiding in this home? Yes or no?"
Now, the Law states, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Meaning, you aren't to lie. Do you tell the truth? Refrain from saying anything thus giving away that you have a Jewish family hiding in your home? Or... do you look them in the eye and say, "No. I have no Jews in my home."?
The law regarding lying was to protect one's integrity and the well being of others. So, to obey the law and allow a family to be murdered would be antithesis to the law's intention. Therefore, love would require that you protect them and leave the Nazi's ignorant of their presence. Yes, I'd vote that you lie in such a situation. God knows the heart and the intention of the deception. Just as David tricked the enemy into thinking he was insane when he wasn't. Just as Jacob tricked Isaac to secure his God given birth right.
That's my take on it. I know, it's an extreme example... but I think it reveals how a rigid application of the law... can be antithesis to the very spirit of the law.
A simple law in itself can be misapplied in many ways. it is the whole of the law that is perfect when reflected on. You tithe.... but you negate the weightier matters of the law, justice mercy and faith. It's not ONE rule. It's the law balanced upon itself. That has nothing to do with GRACE it has to do with principle understanding. Breaking one rule when it comes to the understanding of the whole meaning. It's like taking one law and applying it to the EXTREME that it loses it's meaning. By doing so you fail other laws. it's about context as a whole. Which is the point of love fulfills the law. As love is the very heart of it all. Even then people misuse and confuse the actual aspects of love and do injustice to what God means by it.
So are you saying that saved peopl go to hell or are you saying that you can lose your salvation?
Let's say Bro. Smith gets "saved". Now he begins the Christian walk, a process or journey called "sanctification". Yet Bro. Smith decides that he is going to fashion himself after the OT law in accordance to how his church preaches it. Now, he is obligated to obey the entire law, but he believes he can pick and choose arbitarily based on his denomination. After a long life of being a devout member of his Pentecostal church, he dies. He is carried by the angels to the very presence of God where his entire life, including thoughts (and the thoughts of others) is replayed in vivid detail. He sees all the places in life where he faithfully obeyed the little laws his church taught him... but glaring before him are the countless times he failed to properly love his wife, his parents, his kids, his friends, his coworkers, his extended family, acquaintances, and even strangers. Strangely... the moments where he failed to properly love hurt the deepest, even deeper than the moments wherein secret sins or struggles were replayed. Jesus speaks to him saying, "Bro. Smith, you were a dynomite Pentecostal!" Proud Bro. Smith puffs his chest out hoping for a reward for wearing a silly suit and cutting his hair a certain way, for modifying his diet to match some "Jerusalem Diet", and for how he never wore shorts or watched television. Then Jesus says, "The problem is Bro. Smith... I'm NOT Pentecostal. Your purpose on earth was two fold... to learn to love with abandon. And through learning to love... become... like me. You are more Pentecostal than you are like me, Bro. Smith." Bro. Smith begins to panic. He begins saying, "Lord, Lord... did I not prophesy in your name, cast out devils in your name, heal the sick in your name, and do many marvelous works in your name???" The very words poured out and rang a somber note in his soul revealing the very nature of what he had allowed himself to become. Then Jesus answers..."Bro. Smith... you're nothing like me. I never knew you. Depart from me you WORKER of iniquity!"
Now... Bro. Smith is confined to Hell. He was "saved"... but somewhere along the line he was waylayed and was conformed into the image of a religion and not the image of Jesus. Thus he failed in his sanctification, the calling to be like Christ.
You might say that he "lost" his salvation. But more accurately... he walked away from it and embraced religion. Some walk away and embrace a life of sin, another religion, or no religion at all. People wander from their faith, they "drift". Unless they wake up and get back on the path... they themselves choose the very path that takes them out from under the blood and leads them to Hell.
Bro. Smith was shocked to realize that life was about one thing... learning to love. Learning to love as Jesus loved... and thereby allowing that love to transform him into the very image and likeness of Jesus. It wasn't about all the rules he prided himself on both discovering and following.
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