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Originally Posted by Pliny
You have inferred that unless someone agrees with you they are an "enemy of the Constitution". This statement bothers me.
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I firmly believe that. And… I don’t care if that bothers you bro. lol
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I have simply asked you to prove the assertion that someone is an enemy of the Constitution because they vote Biblical values. I agree the state cannot be used to enforce various interpretations of scripture.
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True. And no matter how much WE might disagree… there are interpretations of the Scripture that wouldn’t prohibit all forms of homosexuality. Essentially, you’re using GOVERNMENT to force your interpretation. If you truly believe that the STATE shouldn’t be used to enforce a single interpretation of Scripture over others… WHY are you doing so??? Now your position is hypocritical. And THIS makes my case that even according to your own words… using the STATE to enforce a single interpretation of Scripture does violence to the Constitution. You made my case.
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Here is the conundrum, we must vote with our values and for the Christian those values are biblically based.
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Presupposition alert!!! Who said I must “vote my values”??? I personally value house churching and have a strong dislike for institutional churches. Should I vote my values and try to dismantle laws that support institutional churches based on my religious convictions??? Should Catholics only vote for politicians and measures that would outlaw second and third marriages??? You ASSUME every Christian thinks like YOU. And we don’t. You don’t represent us. And no matter how noble and true you think your interpretations of the Scriptures are… me and millions of others will most likely have disagreements with you. So you have no right trying to REPRESENT me or my faith.
Here’s the deal… my values are indeed that… MY values. However, one of my VALUES is to protect individual liberty. When I was in the Army I served to protect the freedom of every Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Satanist, etc. to freely practice their religion. I stand for and vote for liberty. However, my values govern my PERSONAL lifestyle. According to your logic… I should stand firmly against the freedom to practice soul damning religions… thereby I should vote against religious liberty. Your position is again… antithesis to the Constitutional vision of liberty. Don’t you realize that when I was in the Army, I was willing to DIE to protect a Satanists freedom of religion??? I value liberty. And within that liberty I practice Christianity. But I will not use my Christianity as an EXCUSE to subvert the liberties of another.
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What you are doing (as it appears to me) is to subtlety silence Christians from using their moral value system to vote.
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No… I’m all for silencing political dolts who would use religion to manipulate Christians into voting for n agenda that endangers the personal liberties of all Americans.
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Had the Christians been silent on slavery who knows where that institution would be today. I renounce the idea that I must be silent because I am a Christian.
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Please note… the staunchest conservative Christians of the day were FOR SLAVERY. It was those who were branded “liberals” who were inspired by their Christianity to believe that every man should be FREE. Even non-Christian slaves. If you don’t believe me… go back and research how often Lincoln was branded a liberal for standing for emancipation.
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I do agree with this statement of yours:
"Our liberty is based on one fundamental principle. We were intended to do as we desired as long as we didn't endanger another person's life, liberty, or property."
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You don’t agree with that. You’d take away a free man’s liberty to do as he wishes privately in his own life, according to his own convictions, and his own conscience, in accordance to his own faith. Why do I know this??? Because if a gay man attending an Episcopal church wanted to marry and live with his companion you’d want to use the power of the STATE to crush his liberty to do so. Now, I’m not saying God would approve of his decision to marry another man. What I’m saying is… he has the right to go to Hell if living according to his conscience should so send him there. Liberty.
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The problem here as it relates to homosexual marriage is that it is far more than two people getting married. It effects adoption and the tax code as well. What is best for children?
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I’m hearing violins. Lol “But what about the CHILDREN???” Typical political ploy. What about all the children in households without health insurance??? I guess GOVERNMENT should step in and provide it for the family??? The argument is old and worn out. What about them??? I know… what about… LIBERTY???
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Is it a single parent home or a home where the two biological parent work together to raise the children? What is best for children? A homosexual couple or the biological parents working together to raise the children? Studies, science, have shown time and time and time again... That children have the best opportunity for success when raised by their biological parents. This is a proven scientific fact.
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Not if the biological parents are abusive idiots or crack heads. Sometimes a child would do “better” in a “loving home”, even if the parent were gay. So… do we ban family units wherein the biological parents aren’t together??? Get real. My mom divorced my drunken, abusive, dead beat father. And I was BETTER for it. And if my mother were to have been a lesbian… that’s her business… NOT THE GOVERNMENTS. Don’t you see that???
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We should set the bar high and not dumb it down. One recent study that comes to mind is the Regnerus study. I would recommend everyone read through the study. I don't have it with me currently so I will not speak specifically about because I have many studies from many sources and I don't want to infer something that may have been from another study. However, the Regnerus study is recent and had a high sample rate in comparison to other studies on the subject of what is best for children. This is the heart of the issue and the Biblical model has proven to be the best model.
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And??? So what? It means NOTHING. Why? It’s not the GOVERNMENT’S JOB. Consider this…study after study, backed up by precious science, has proven that heart disease is America’s leading killer (not gay marriage). And it is largely such a great problem due to obesity. And obesity is largely caused by people eating too much fast foods and foods loaded with saturated fat. To save the CHILDREN and all these FAT little families… should the GOVERNMENT step in and regulate the fast food industry??? Should the GOVERNMENT begin regulating diet??? Should parents have to report the caloric intake of their children to some GOVERNMENT bureaucrat because a healthy diet is the best model for a child’s health??? NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Why??? BECAUSE it’s NOT the GOVERNMENT’S job to regulate what we eat. No matter how HEALTHY it would be for us… or “the children”. IT’S NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S JOB. The GOVERNMENT should insure that we do not endanger another citizen’s life, liberty, or property… and protect the boarders. It’s not the GOVERNMENT’S job to regulate marriage, diet, family structure, or Halloween candy! LOL
Besides… half those womanizing, power mad, buffoons in Washington are in their second or third marriages. And you think THEY have the right to tell US what family structure is best and enforce some regulation to make it so??? What planet are you from??? Lol
So, while I agree with you that a home with two biological parents is best for a child… IT’S NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S BUSINESS. That’s for churches, mosques, synagogues, charities, counseling centers, and other PRIVATE entities to address as families turn to them voluntarily.
Gays aren’t going away. They are also tax paying citizens. Thereby, they are entitled to equal representation under the law. And the law states that no one should be discriminated against on the basis of race, color, gender, religion, etc. Why? Because all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; and among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They will NEVER cease to demand equal representation under the law without discrimination on the basis of gender. Therefore, I assure you that they will win if not to just get them to shut up.
But all is not lost! Why? Because while we’ll see an immediate boom in gay marriage… we’ll soon see a boom in “gay divorces”. They will soon discover that marriage isn’t the panacea they thought it was. And given the promiscuous nature of so many homosexuals… the number of gay marriages will drop drastically. And that’s not the best part. The best part will be…televised divorce court! LOL Yes, it will make for hilarious television!!! LOL! In the end… they’ll just be a spectacle to be laughed at.
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As to the comments on Islam and Sharia Law - It is a real threat to the Constitution and goes beyond what "Christians" advocate.
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Wrong. The Christians behind the culture war in America are Reconstructionists. Read up on them. They want to enforce Biblical law in the United States.
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Sharia subverts the Constitution completely. It sets up a code of conduct that touches every aspect of society while doing away with the Constitution altogether and the Bill of Rights associated with it. No true comparison can be made between Sharia Law and Christians standing up for the Biblilcal family model.
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As you’ve already noted… your version of “Christian family law” would affect adoptions, tax codes, family structures, domestic partner benefits, insurance benefits, etc. So, the “Christian family law” you espouse is just as far reaching as Sharia law would be. I come from a home wherein I was raised by an awesome single mom. The America you would build wouldn’t represent me. In addition, I’m a divorcee with a son who is rebuilding my life with a young lady (who is also a divorcee with a daughter). So, we’re building a blended family. Your vision for America wouldn’t represent my family at all. So get over yourself and your supposed “social righteousness”. In addition… get a vision of what true American liberty is about down here in this broken world. The Christian utopia you envision is a pipe dream. The best thing you can do is protect and defend the individual liberties of ALL people.
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