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Originally Posted by Le Penseur
That's a cop out - something to fall back on when it doesn't make sense according to our understanding.
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It's not about our understanding. There is ONE plan of salvation preached by the Apostles in scripture. Not ONE individual in scripture was led in a "sinners prayer", shook a pastors hand, and was called "saved" in the original Apostolic Church. There is not one recorded count of someone converting without being baptized IMMEDIATELY. I perfer to do things the way they were done by the early church as recorded in scripture when it comes to issues of salvation and conversion. If you don't that's between YOU and God. That's not a cop out. I'm unequivocally saying there IS ONLY ONE WAY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Penseur
This is about the only response that I or anyone else in the OP movement could ever provide given the scenario with the thief on the cross or other folks who, on their deathbed appear to have expressed saving faith in Christ.
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When are you all going to stop using the thief on the cross? Even if you totally disregard the dispensation in which the thief lived, we are talking about an EXTREME set of circumstances, that NOT ONE human being on the face of the Earth besides the thief himself can say that they themselves can say they have experienced. Scripture is clear that Jesus himself had the power to forgive sin on Earth. We have not had our sins pardoned face to face with Christ. Our pardonship comes directly from the New Birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Penseur
The problem isn't the scripture. The problem is the hermeneutic. To just quip, "Well, he's in the hands of a just God," is nothing but a deflection from a very shaky doctrinal stance.
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No the problem is that people want to "put" everybody in Heaven no matter how they lived their lives according to the scripture. I didn't come from a family with christian legacy or heritage of any kind. I came from a family of drug addicts, thieves, murderers, alcoholics, and gang bangers. I have so many dead lost loved ones it's ridiculous including a brother who died before even I got saved. I can't bother trying to justify their activities in my head, they are lost. They were great people... but they are lost.
It doesn't matter what "standard of salvation" that Christians go by is the "nicest". Either way if you say that ANYBODY is lost, SOMEBODY somewhere is going to bark about some out of this world, strange, never-going-to-happen, scenario questioning your doctrine. Even when you've watered the gospel down to "confess and believe" and lead the sinners prayer, people will start asking about random little Tibetan boys that never heard the name Jesus. The whole argument isn't based on scripture, it's based on made scenarios that we can't sit here and run through all day to address them all. God is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CAPABLE of saving everyone using his perfect plan of salvation according to
Acts 2:38.
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Originally Posted by Le Penseur
It doesn't matter that you don't believe a just God would or would not honor that.
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The question that started this thread was about whether or not we believe God honors that.
I say no.
As for as this discussion goes yes my opinion matters because that's what this is about.
As far as the Bible, absolutely how I feel doesn't matter. It's what the word says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Penseur
The fact is that His sense of justice and fairness cannot be comprehended by us because it is so vastly superior to ours. But scripture is clear as Jesus painted the picture of the same wages given to the last hour newcomers as those who had labored all day.
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There will be "last hour" newcomers, that has nothing to do with death bed repentance. To suggest it does is stretching the interpretation. We are about to see a massive worldwide end time revival, they will be the last day new comers before the ultimate return of our Lord and Savior.
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Originally Posted by Le Penseur
This is a great testimony, but it's dangerous practice to use experience to confirm our view of scripture. Scripture confirms scripture - not our experiences.
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This whole discussion is about experiences, mind you. That's the whole point, we sit here with all these examples of random situations to try to prove your point.
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Originally Posted by Le Penseur
If you believe that you have to add anything to your faith in Christ in order to receive salvation, then YES... YOU ARE A LEGALIST. Remember that Christ's entire purpose for dying was to save a human race that He loves passionately. His mercy endures to ALL generations. What would you do if you were the bus driver and one of YOUR OWN children, who was dragging her feet, got to the bus stop just one second before you had to close the door and leave. Would you still let her on? Or would you close the door and drive off, telling her she had plenty of time and should have been prepared? We're talking finality here - not to "teach her a lesson for next time." What would you do? And then think about what our Father would do - after going to such great lengths to provide for her salvation.
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You just told me it's not about what "I think" and then ran in with some emotional example and then asked me again what I think the father would do.
Do you not see the ABSOLUTE hypcracy in these two statements?
Regardless of whether your a one stepper or a two stepper or a three stepper, SOME BODY is going to go off on you about God's love, mercy, and kindness. It's the same game the universalists play, and then they come up with their numerous scriptures, call the southern baptists legalists, and we're in this whole boat again.
It doesn't matter who you are, and how liberal you get SOMEBODY, SOMEWAY can call you a legalist up until you just straight up say "everyone is saved". Why? Because as soo as you say you need to believe people say why do you need to believe? As soon as you say faith is required people argue. As soon as you say saving faith produces work... people argue.
You can call me a "legalist" all you want, but the name calling is nothing but useless hyperbole and can be used against ANYBODY.
God is a God of love mercy and kindness. To sit here and to say that Apostolics don't believe in God's mercy, love, and kindness, and that we look at our selves highly because we were baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost and "worked our way" into Heaven is ridiculous and dishonest. If it had not been for the Lord who he himself brought me to salvation, gave me a heart, a mind, and a desire to be obedient to his word I would not be hear typing, I'd probably be dead. I owe my salvation ENTIRELY to God as do we all. I can look back and see God's hand protecting me now and bringing me and guiding me through the new birth experience and continuing to guide me. HE ALONE is the deliverer of our souls. HE ALONE holds our souls in his hands.
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