Noah and the Ark

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The whole "sea" (whole earth actually) must be taken into account. The variations in air pressure on one part of the globe will have impacts on others. This isn't just a "filling up your bathtub scenario" unless you've thrown a couple of active toddlers into the tub as well.

Also, your rising scenario ignores the scouring of rock that many Young Earth Creationists want to attribute to the "Flood of Noah." (See the Channeled Scablands for example and even the Grand Canyon).

These same folks want to have had the continents "separate" at this time. North America isn't going to move over 4,000 miles in a few months very quietly. There will be rough seas. I know you may not want all of their baggage, but it's worth adding here.

The lateral stability necessary to keep the raft from flopping upside down would require displacement such as you would have with a hull and keel design that you've already mentioned. This would also provide some longitudinal rigidity. This is necessary for keeping the whole vessel from snapping in half. Even without propulsion, the vessel will at times be lifted up so that one half of its weight is bearing downward on the keel. This action will be repeated with every wave.

So, we must have a keel that is strong and rigid enough for stresses that are to be equated with a huge hand lifting the vessel by its stern and shaking it up and down.

A wooden keel of over 300 feet in length has never been sufficient for sea keeping. Not ever in the history of man. And, Noah's Ark is described as being 66% longer than that.

A covered deck on a raft would have to be sufficient to shelter its passengers from the waves generated as India and the Himalayas passed underneath at speeds of about 3 or 4 knots. In other words, no shelter would be sufficient short of a rigid steel vessel in orbit at a distance of at least 120 miles from the surface of the flood. (Lower orbits would decay too fast).

If not keeps, how about anchors, ropes tied to huge bolders

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

During the past couple of hundred years when ships sailed long distances the only thing the people had to drink was beer. Water simply did not stay fresh long enough for trips lasting months. Now the Ark was floating for more then a year -how did they store both the quantity and quality of water needed to keep the people and animals alive?

I know... God COULD have kept it supernaturally fresh, but lets look at all the miracles God would have been required to do for the story of Noah's ark to be literal: Keep the water fresh, as well as providing a constant source of NEW clean water. Keeping the ark 100% water tight. Lowering the appetite of the animals enough for them to survive on almost no food for over a year. Someone transporting certain animals to parts of the world separated by thousands of miles of water.
I have to ask... why do all those miracles then ask Noah to spend over a hundred years making an ark that would not be capable of surviving on its own? It would be like God saying "I want you to build me a space ship out of oak and pine...". In fact a space ship would be nearly as likely.

Good point.

And koala bears. They eat only eucalyptus leaves. Eucalyptus leaves are only found in Australia. After releasing the koalas, and assuming that Japeth had somehow managed to get a year's worth of fresh eucalyptus leaves from Australia to begin with, how did the koalas get back to Australia which was now separated from Mount Ararat by 4864 miles of land and 2,055 miles of sea.

Did Japeth (I'm assuming Japeth since he was "responsible" for most of the gentiles) carry those cuddly bears over this distance? Did he build a second mini ark to transport the marsupials and monotremes to Australia?

Or did they stick the koalas and platypuses into the pouches of the kangaroos and just hope that it would all sort of work out?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If not keeps, how about anchors, ropes tied to huge bolders

A couple of ways to use an anchor -

1) An anchor set in the seabed to hold the vessel in a relatively calm place. However, we've got the continents moving around at considerable speeds and the anchor would serve as a sort of pivot causing the ride to be even worse.

a) You would need something like a 60,000 foot anchor chain. Not "impossible" - but this would be yet another "miracle" just to get such a thing and not sink the raft with it.

b) The stress in the wooden raft as the continents pulled the vessel would certainly send your capstan into a near orbit. And then you'd have to deal with the gaping hole where the capstan and anchor chain used to be along with whatever planking and passengers who were sent aloft in the storm.

2) Modern sail boats use their anchors and other weights suspended from the sides of the ship through lateral spars to achieve stability under certain conditions. This is one trick used by some cruisers when they are forced to "anchor" at sea and get some sleep.

a) No unusually long anchor chain is required.

b) No spars or anchors are mentioned in the Genesis account.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

A couple of ways to use an anchor -

1) An anchor set in the seabed to hold the vessel in a relatively calm place. However, we've got the continents moving around at considerable speeds and the anchor would serve as a sort of pivot causing the ride to be even worse.

a) You would need something like a 60,000 foot anchor chain. Not "impossible" - but this would be yet another "miracle" just to get such a thing and not sink the raft with it.

b) The stress in the wooden raft as the continents pulled the vessel would certainly send your capstan into a near orbit. And then you'd have to deal with the gaping hole where the capstan and anchor chain used to be along with whatever planking and passengers who were sent aloft in the storm.

2) Modern sail boats use their anchors and other weights suspended from the sides of the ship through lateral spars to achieve stability under certain conditions. This is one trick used by some cruisers when they are forced to "anchor" at sea and get some sleep.

a) No unusually long anchor chain is required.

b) No spars or anchors are mentioned in the Genesis account.

Why would the continents be flying around like that?

The anchor does not necessarily have to be logged, it could however stable the ark like a keel. BTW it could also lodge into the side of a mountain

That no anchor is mentioned does not mean they did not use any

[pelathais]

One word about the "Ark's" "anchors" and ... uhm ... "controversial" "archaeologist" Ron Wyatt:

The late Ron Wyatt claims to have "found" the anchor stones from Noah's Ark several miles from the slopes of Mount Ararat. These stones (see attached) are located near 8 - can you believe it? - 8 graves, at least according to some accounts.

The "anchor stones" are remarkably similar to basaltic rocks in the near vicinity. The holes are not worn smooth as though ropes had ever been used to heave them about. The holes are too near the edge to have provided a secure hold without the mass of the stones breaking them off.

And finally.. the "anchor stones" themselves resemble ancient pre-Christian Armenian stelae that were used for occult purposes.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/wyatt.html

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by pelathais

......
And finally.. the "anchor stones" themselves resemble ancient pre-Christian Armenian stelae that were used for occult purposes.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/wyatt.html

Well, maybe Noah knew what the witches of his time did!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why would the continents be flying around like that?

The anchor does not necessarily have to be logged, it could however stable the ark like a keel. BTW it could also lodge into the side of a mountain

That no anchor is mentioned does not mean they did not use any

The "flying around" I have envisioned is what would happened when the anchor at the end of a 60,000 foot rope or chain (10,000 foot if secured into the side of K2?) had snapped the capstan from its moorings in the raft's single layer deck as the subcontinent of India (and K2) passed beneath the hull of the raft at approximately 4 to 6 knots.

The forward wave would have been I don't know how many feet high - thousands? The volume of a tsunami wave is equal to the volume of mass that is displaced causing the wave. So, considering the mass of the Himalayan Plateau and the entire Indian subcontinent - we'd have a wave how high? Assuming Noah had affixed his capstan securely, the wrenching of the capstan by the mass of the Tibetan Plateau and Indian subcontinent would create a shock wave across the raft's wooden deck that would have sent several of the elephant species and most of the dinos into flight.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Well, maybe Noah knew what the witches of his time did!

ROFL

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The "flying around" I have envisioned is what would happened when the anchor at the end of a 60,000 foot rope or chain (10,000 foot if secured into the side of K2?) had snapped the capstan from its moorings in the raft's single layer deck as the subcontinent of India (and K2) passed beneath the hull of the raft at approximately 4 to 6 knots.

The forward wave would have been I don't know how many feet high - thousands? The volume of a tsunami wave is equal to the volume of mass that is displaced causing the wave. So, considering the mass of the Himalayan Plateau and the entire Indian subcontinent - we'd have a wave how high? Assuming Noah had affixed his capstan securely, the wrenching of the capstan by the mass of the Tibetan Plateau and Indian subcontinent would create a shock wave across the raft's wooden deck that would have sent several of the elephant species and most of the dinos into flight.

still sounds like a global flood

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

... There would have also been woolly mammoths (making it 4 species). And what about the kangaroos? And wolverines? And other animals indigenous to Australia and surrounding big islands? How did they make it there after the flood was over and all the animals were released?
...

How did all of the "right" animals find their way back to the "right" habitats and how did they avoid having any of the "wrong" animals in the wrong habitat?

For example... how did the dodos find their way back to their home on Mauritius - AND without any species of wild dog or wildcat hitching a ride and devouring all of the dodos prematurely? (The dodos were wiped out when dogs were introduced to the island in the 1600's).

How did the marsupials "know" to go to Australia and avoid the ruinous competition with placental mammals that would be responsible for later wiping out the Tasmanian wolf and Tasmanian tigers when the dingos were introduced and multiplied?+

There is a moth that feeds only on yucca flowers when in its adult stage. How did it "know" to get to Arizona and the American Southwest? How did it get to Arizona and the American Southwest and not, say, Uzbekistan where the climate is similar but there were no yucca plants.