Post trib doctrine = Christ terrorizes His bride

[Sean]

That chart is not chronological order and is piece mealed together.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The church has always suffered persecution by the spirit of antichrist. So, the final persecution is truly not significant in any way other that it being the final persecution, and perhaps global.

However, the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation is an issue for Post-Tribulation rapture believers. This is why I would advise that they at least consider the Pre-Wrath Rapture position over the Post Tribulation Rapture position.

I've included a chart explaining this interpretation as an attachment to this post.

This is the sticking point. Just how much "wrath" is poured out during the "Tribulation", if any? There is room to allow the possibility of some "judgments" during that time. But the full blown, earth shaking wrath comes "immediately after the Tribulation of those days" according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

That chart is not chronological order and is piece mealed together.

All things are a matter of interpretation. According to this Futurist position, you'll notice that the seals only affect a fourth of the earth. The Trumpets affect a third of the earth. The bowls affect the entire world. They are judgments of progressive scope and intensity. Which lends them to being sequential, and not overlapping, as many Futurists interpret them as being today.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

This is the sticking point. Just how much "wrath" is poured out during the "Tribulation", if any? There is room to allow the possibility of some "judgments" during that time. But the full blown, earth shaking wrath comes "immediately after the Tribulation of those days" according to Jesus is Matthew 24:29.

This is where the Pre-Wrath position makes more sense for the Futurist who might believe in the Post-Trib framework. The seals only affect a fourth of the earth, the trumpets a third, and the bowls the whole. What is seen in this position are judgments that are progressing in both intensity and scope. In this position, the Rapture takes place prior to the bowl judgments (which affect the whole world), and take place after the Rapture during what Pre-Wrath believers call, the Day of the Lord. And so, the bowl judgements take place after the Antichrist's persecution and the trumpet judgments, making the bowl judgements "after the Tribulation of those days".

[Aquila]

The Pre-Wrath position affirms all the texts that support the presence of the church on earth during the Tribulation that Post-Tribbers tend to embrace. In addition, the Pre-Wrath position affirms the texts that indicate that the church will be raptured prior to the global judgments that come forth during the Day of the Lord that Pre-Tribbers embrace. And, it does this without pin pointing a point in time during the Tribulation by which the rapture might be calculated (abomination of desolation), a weakness of the Mid-Tribber position, all the while affirming the texts that appear to describe the church being raptured out of tribulation that the Mid-Tribbers embrace.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All things are a matter of interpretation. According to this Futurist position, you'll notice that the seals only affect a fourth of the earth. The Trumpets affect a third of the earth. The bowls affect the entire world. They are judgments of progressive scope and intensity. Which lends them to being sequential, and not overlapping, as many Futurists interpret them as being today.

The book of Revelation is not written in chronological order from chapter 6 on to begin with. Chapters 1-3 have nothing to do with chronology.

But your comments raise another point, that being the diversity of thought with the post-trib camp. As the chart depicts, some believe the tribulation (which begins at the Abomination of Desolation, half-way through the seven final years and is not a seven year tribulation) is actually cut short significantly and that the wrath mentioned in Matthew 24:29 actually takes several months to complete with the rapture happening before-hand. Personally, I do not see how that fits with Christ depicting the elect being gathered while these things are happening.

[Sean]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.



"They" are the elect of God(national Israel, Jews etc,), the beloved enemies of the 1st century church.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I don't. But what I do make a matter of salvation is when one continually lies and misrepresents the beliefs of others, even after many clarifications have been made. It's one thing to disagree with a teaching. It's another thing to invent a straw man version of a teaching and claim you are debating the actual version.

Exactly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Is pre trib heresy? Or is it true? Which? If its true its not heresy. If Jesus and the apostles taught pre trib its not heresy.

Which is it Mike?

I already responded to you by raising th e issue of what remit sins and whether end time prophecy remits sins, and you would not.... Once again... respond. Deal with that issue for it is the pertinent point with your salvation by works bend.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The book of Revelation is not written in chronological order from chapter 6 on to begin with. Chapters 1-3 have nothing to do with chronology.

But your comments raise another point, that being the diversity of thought with the post-trib camp. As the chart depicts, some believe the tribulation (which begins at the Abomination of Desolation, half-way through the seven final years and is not a seven year tribulation) is actually cut short significantly and that the wrath mentioned in Matthew 24:29 actually takes several months to complete with the rapture happening before-hand. Personally, I do not see how that fits with Christ depicting the elect being gathered while these things are happening.

Interesting point to ponder.

How can they not have anything to do with chronology? The seals open the book... once the book is opened, the angels with the 7 trumpets sound, and once the final angel has sounded his trumpet, the angels with the 7 bowls step forward.

I've always wondered why so many scholars assume that these events overlap. For example, how can an event in the seals (that only affects a fourth of the earth), be taking place as part of a trumpet judgment (that only affects a third of the earth), as part of a bowl judgment (that affects the entire world)?

I think the progression in the text is obvious... the judgments increase in both scope and intensity with each phase of judgment. The seals are a breaking forth of the judgments that are contained in the book, and they affect only a quarter of the world. Trumpets, are meant to warn the world that judgment is coming, and these only affect a third of the world. The bowl judgments... they are global and are poured out in full strength, without mixture.