Deathbed Salvation

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I feel compelled to rely upon the manner which apostle Paul's proclamation serves to answer your inquiry:

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them," (II Corinthians 4:3-4)

Oh yes, I know! You're going to reply, "But these folks live way down there in the jungle where there are no Apostolic preachers to tell them of the gospel of Christ, so how are they to ever know whether there even be a God, right?" Well, if that be your response, I would remind you of these two things:

1.) There was a time when their ancestors lived where there was truth readily available, but they chose to neglect it and, in fact, flee from it by travelling to such remote & desolate locales to live. Perhaps these are among the first to bear the blame for their ignorance.

2.) The writer of Romans advises us that even in the absence of a Bible by which one might learn of what God demands of them to be reconciled unto Himself, nature itself bears witness to the fact that there is a God (and remember this also - Abraham, as well as all those who lived prior to Moses' writing of the 1st five books of the OT, didn't possess any written document which told them of God and His relationship with man):

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [which means "divinity"] so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20, KJV, emphasis added)

I am unable to add more to these explicit statements of Scripture!

Yup. Clear as mud.

After all the theological hoops you have to jump through to show that only the 20th Century interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the way, the truth, and the life and NO ONE will be saved outside of completing the three steps AND that the thief on the cross was an aberration that needs to be constantly explained away, all I have to do is go back to the thief were he said "remember me", and it was enough for God Himself.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

On the minister's forum I started this thread with quite a bit of healthy debate, but alas some wearied of the challenge to OP doctrine and requested that I cease. Since I know there is a variety of opinion here and freedom of ideas is allowed I wanted to continue the debate here. I offered that some would come over here to keep the conversation going.

Simply put, if a man was dying, with moments to live and he repented of his sins, I believe his sins would be forgiven and he would be cleansed from all unrighteousness. If Jesus can't save him in those circumstances, He's not much of a savior.

"Behold I stand at the door, and knock, if ANY MAN, will hear my voice and open the door I WILL come in..." He is mighty to save!!!!!!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Yup. Clear as mud.

After all the theological hoops you have to jump through to show that only the 20th Century interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the way, the truth, and the life and NO ONE will be saved outside of completing the three steps AND that the thief on the cross was an aberration that needs to be constantly explained away, all I have to do is go back to the thief were he said "remember me", and it was enough for God Himself.

As I said in my closing statement.....

I am unable to add more to these explicit statements of Scripture!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Yup. Clear as mud.

After all the theological hoops you have to jump through to show that only the 20th Century interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the way, the truth, and the life and NO ONE will be saved outside of completing the three steps AND that the thief on the cross was an aberration that needs to be constantly explained away, all I have to do is go back to the thief were he said "remember me", and it was enough for God Himself.

The thief on the cross is the perfect picture of grace. Helpless man who cannot do a single thing to save himself except believe in Jesus. It's a conundrum for OPs and it gets dealt with "hoop jumping" as you call it. I always hated when someone brought up the thief when I staunchly parroted the OP doctrine on salvation. I used the same interpretive slight of hand to dance around the glaringly obvious fact that the man wasn't baptized or spoke in tongues, yet through simple faith and the grace of God, he died knowing he wouldmwake up in paradise with Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Lafon

As I said in my closing statement.....

I am unable to add more to these explicit statements of Scripture!

Would you pray for a dying man, anointing him with oil, who wanted to be saved? Yes or no?

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Would you pray for a dying man, anointing him with oil, who wanted to be saved? Yes or no?

I'd like to know too. The implications of someone not believing it is possible for a dying person to be saved are, to be quite honest, frightening.

[AreYouReady?]

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

(Luke 1:37)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I'd like to know too. The implications of someone not believing it is possible for a dying person to be saved are, to be quite honest, frightening.

They'd step right over a man bleeding to death on the highway as he pleaded for prayer and for God to forgive him of sins. And then they claim they don't see any provision for the sick and infirm in Scripture. Hello... they don't believe in anointing the sick and infirm, praying for healing and the forgiveness of sins? Oh, but then they say it applies only to the church. So, if a saint's dying and unsaved spouse or child requested prayer... they'd deny it??? You know they don't.

Their position is just full of illogical inconsistencies. I chalk it up to this... God provided the anointing of oil and the prayer of faith for any sick and infirm person among us... including unsaved family and friends. And the benefits of this sacrement are:

-Possible healing.
-Being raised up.
-The Forgiveness of sins.

Let's review:

James 5:14-15 (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

No I left the conversation b/c they started with the whole, "You have to believe A238 to be on this forum, so unless you're willing to keep your anti-Apostolic views to yourself, you need to do the honorable thing and leave this forum." So since I want to remain on that forum, I told them Id take the conversation here.

You make some interesting points. Ultimately God's mercy is greater than man's. It seems unjust that someone who lived like the devil can slip in the eleventh hour and get saved. But as was mentioned before in Matt 20 God says "what business is it of yours? Its my money and I can pay whatever I want to whomever I want!" I contend that a dying soul can cry out to God and God would respomd with love and mercy. The argument was made on the other forum that Matt 20 wasn't referring to salvation. Of course.

As far as the theif on the cross is concerned, when one makes the argument that he was saved under OT Law, then they're saying that it was easier to acquire grace and mercy in the OT than it is in the NT. Its a nonsense argument. The man could not do anything but exercise faith in Jesus, which he did, and as a result Christ told him he was saved. A perfect picture of grace.

Legalists have to create all sorts of crazy interpretations of scripture because the theology is flawed and inconsistent with the whole of scripture. Cherry pick your favorite passages, only refer to them and then dance around the problematic scriptures with cop outs.

Amen! And thank you!

His expression of faith and trust in Christ led to his salvation, and it's the same for us. I'm in agreement with your statements in the first paragraph - it's not fair - at least not according to our human sense of justice - that the latecomers receive the same reward. But God's sense of justice is so much more righteous than ours we cannot even comprehend it. But our salvation is dependent upon our trusting acceptance of the work that Jesus did for us (because we could not). Any time you add anything to faith (for by grace are ye saved through faith) it becomes works/legalism.

The problem is confounded by dispensationalism, IMO. Nobody was EVER saved under the law. NOBODY! The only way that anyone in all the history of time has ever been saved was through faith in Christ. That's how Abraham was saved - because he had faith concerning God's promises (which all pointed to His promise to provide a Messiah) - and he was counted righteous because of it. When you start breaking up the story into different "dispensations" wherein God saves people in different ways, you end up with the mess we have today. Dispensationalism, IMO, is what props up the OP hermeneutic. But if one can understand that everything before Christ points to Christ, and the new covenant exalts Christ, the scripture record becomes less disjointed and more unified.

Blessings!

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

(Mind you this is an answer coming from a staunch three-stepper).

He is a just judge.

However, scripture is clear that there's only one Biblical plan of salvation. If they LITERALLY JUST heard the plan of salvation at their death bed, and didn't have time to respond, I would say that would be God's choice and decision on whether or not they had enough warning before hand.

That's a cop out - something to fall back on when it doesn't make sense according to our understanding. This is about the only response that I or anyone else in the OP movement could ever provide given the scenario with the thief on the cross or other folks who, on their deathbed appear to have expressed saving faith in Christ. The problem isn't the scripture. The problem is the hermeneutic. To just quip, "Well, he's in the hands of a just God," is nothing but a deflection from a very shaky doctrinal stance.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

If you reject Jesus Christ repeatedly in your life and then all of a sudden you want to "get it right with the big man of stairs" of course I don't believe a just God would honor that.

It doesn't matter that you don't believe a just God would or would not honor that. The fact is that His sense of justice and fairness cannot be comprehended by us because it is so vastly superior to ours. But scripture is clear as Jesus painted the picture of the same wages given to the last hour newcomers as those who had labored all day.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

I will say at my church we do have a testimony of a man who did have a legitimate death bed repentance. He'd never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ before he was days from death in the hospital, and prayed that if God would raise him up from his condition he's repent, be baptized, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. God was faithful, saw the man's heart that he had a true heart of repentance and restored him miraculously to health.

This is a great testimony, but it's dangerous practice to use experience to confirm our view of scripture. Scripture confirms itself AND our experiences. Our experiences do not confirm scripture.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

Despite being called a "legalist" or whatever because I believe in the truth that you must be BORN AGAIN according to Peter's testimony in Acts 2:38... the God I serve is still a just God. He made provision when he saw a true broken and repentant heart. It's my personal opinion that THAT is how God honors TRUE death bed repentance. "God if you raise me up, I'll live for you"... not "God, can I get into Heaven pretty please?"

If you believe that you have to add anything to your faith in Christ in order to receive salvation, then YES... YOU ARE A LEGALIST. Remember that Christ's entire purpose for dying was to save a human race that He loves passionately. His mercy endures to ALL generations. What would you do if you were the bus driver and one of YOUR OWN children, who was dragging her feet, got to the bus stop just one second before you had to close the door and leave. Would you still let her on? Or would you close the door and drive off, telling her she had plenty of time and should have been prepared? We're talking finality here - not to "teach her a lesson for next time." What would you do? And then think about what our Father would do - after going to such great lengths to provide for her salvation.

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

One can 'believe' whatever they like, but do you 'believe' what Jesus Christ said?

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

If there are deathbed conversions then that would be in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus, and there is not ONE example of death bed conversions in the New Testament other than the thief on the cross who was saved under the Old Covenant while Jesus was still alive.

Big problem with this one. John 3.5 has nothing to do with water baptism. Jesus is answering the questions of Nicodemus in John 3.4 and differentiating between natural birth and spiritual birth. Don't you find it curious that "born of water" is NEVER AGAIN mentioned in scripture, or even in Jesus' statements in the rest of John 3? The emphasis here is on being born again, or born of the Spirit. Jesus clarifies what he means by "born again" or "born of the Spirit" in v14-19.

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Why does it matter when someone obeys the Gospel? The only thing that matters is that a person does obey it.

Until the last breath, there is hope.

This is the trouble with salvation by tongues. No one in the Bible was ever commanded to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those who believe 2:38 does command a person to speak with tongues remove the gift aspect of the promise and experience.

In other words, if I can make myself speak in tongues, it's not a gift from God at all. The experience would be produced by flesh instead of His Spirit.

"The wind blows where it wants to" is what Jesus said.

Further, even if a person experiences tongues while on their deathbed, how will they be baptized? And if they are not baptized, according to Apostolics, they are still Hell bound-even though they've been baptized with God's Spirit.

It's all very convoluted.