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  #41  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:01 PM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Not sure DKB is ready to rewrite his practical holiness book.

To me it certainly is one of the positions that is most difficult to defend, but the new GS probably isn't ready to eat crow on that yet.
No, I don't think he ever will but it will continue to be pressed ...

Things such as makeup and jewelry are being given a pass ... in "moderate" dosages ... Pants not addressed in the Holiness article at all ... and tolerated by some churches.

I think many feel that the one passage on hair is enough to make it an "essential truth" ... as expressed by WeDeclare crowd.

The lines in the sand are the 5 or 6 essentials ... that the WeDeclare crowd expressed ... imo.

Some of them already ceded.
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Last edited by DAII; 02-08-2010 at 07:07 PM.
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  #42  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:02 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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I do see the no shorts position going out real soon.
Well ... when one of the founders of the WeDeclare crowd openly publishes pictures of his teen age boys in shorts .... I think this one is already accepted.
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Last edited by DAII; 02-08-2010 at 07:04 PM.
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  #43  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:09 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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No, I don't think he ever will but it will continue to be pressed ...

Things such as makeup and jewelry are being given a pass ... in "moderate" dosages ... Pants not addressed in the Holiness article at all ... and tolerated by some churches.

I think many feel that the one passage on hair is enough to make it an "essential truth" ... as expressed by WeDeclare crowd.

The lines in the sand are the 5 or 6 essentials ... that the WeDeclare crowd expressed ... imo.

Some of them already ceded.
Pants were not addressed in which holiness article?

I think all of these things will still be a fight for a time, but they have to give up on some of these positions or risk further reduction in numbers and influence.
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  #44  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:12 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Pants were not addressed in which holiness article?

I think all of these things will still be a fight for a time, but they have to give up on some of these positions or risk further reduction in numbers and influence.
The Holiness Article of Faith ... makes no mention of pants on a woman ... there is no prohibition AT ALL "on the books" ... other than those who say it is immodest ...

However, no pastor can be called out on it .... imo ... since there is no explicit language concerning it.
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  #45  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:12 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Who is leading the charge ... really is not my point ...

The language in defense of many of these standards is changing ... and if the "intelligentsia" and the "rank and file" are now recognizing that some of this stuff ain't bible ... but rather tradition ... this marks a major shift in the paradigm, imo.
You are correct. I thought that I saw just such a significant shift in Bernard's "The Apostolic Life" a few years back when it first came out.

The thing with Bernard is that he's so circumspect and ever so careful about the way he words things that his "shift" is almost imperceptible to most of his audience.

In fact, he may not even be "shifting;" it could be that as a young man he had some sort of vision for a reasonable and practical approach to faith and holiness, but he largely kept his mouth shut and played ball with the likes of J.L. Hall and Nate Urshan.

He's still not that different from their position on most issues, but he doesn't demand that folks accept the unprovable and the unreasonable the way the "Old Guard" did.

The "Old Guard" demand that we just swallow whatever came out of their mouths when they were excited or agitated. That was the "Voice of God" speaking to us, we were assured. Bernard (and Shaw, Crownover, and many others today) actually allow us to take some time and think things through, ask questions and not force us all to jump on every bandwagon that pulls out of the station.

The whole "anti-emergent" thing of the last couple of years is an example of just one of those "bandwagons." C.W. demanded that everyone accept his vague and ill conceived accusations as some sort of clear and "certain sound." Shaw gave us a "heads up" that we don't have to follow that kind of witch hunt any longer.
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  #46  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:16 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Originally Posted by DAII View Post
The Holiness Article of Faith ... makes no mention of pants on a woman ... there is no prohibition AT ALL "on the books" ... other than those who say it is immodest ...

However, no pastor can be called out on it .... imo ... since there is no explicit language concerning it.
Just DKB's books, which are treated as almost biblical within the UPC.
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  #47  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:22 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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I do see the no shorts position going out real soon.
I'll be on the beach next week - it had better be "okay" for me to be comfortable and to enjoy the time with my family.

... I just hate it when I'm there, laying on a beach soaking up the rays... and then suddenly a bunch of kids are surrounding me and dumping buckets of water on my belly and saying, "Return to the sea! Return to the sea! Free Willy! RETURN TO THE SEA!!!"

Where do those kids come from anyways?
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  #48  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:23 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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You are correct. I thought that I saw just such a significant shift in Bernard's "The Apostolic Life" a few years back when it first came out.

The thing with Bernard is that he's so circumspect and ever so careful about the way he words things that his "shift" is almost imperceptible to most of his audience.

In fact, he may not even be "shifting;" it could be that as a young man he had some sort of vision for a reasonable and practical approach to faith and holiness, but he largely kept his mouth shut and played ball with the likes of J.L. Hall and Nate Urshan.

He's still not that different from their position on most issues, but he doesn't demand that folks accept the unprovable and the unreasonable the way the "Old Guard" did.

The "Old Guard" demand that we just swallow whatever came out of their mouths when they were excited or agitated. That was the "Voice of God" speaking to us, we were assured. Bernard (and Shaw, Crownover, and many others today) actually allow us to take some time and think things through, ask questions and not force us all to jump on every bandwagon that pulls out of the station.

The whole "anti-emergent" thing of the last couple of years is an example of just one of those "bandwagons." C.W. demanded that everyone accept his vague and ill conceived accusations as some sort of clear and "certain sound." Shaw gave us a "heads up" that we don't have to follow that kind of witch hunt any longer.
In many ways Bernard is the Cardinal Richelieu of this Counter-Reformation
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  #49  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:26 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Originally Posted by DAII View Post
addendum: Crownover is no longer at UGST ... however this PPT was part of the available resources he made to his students @ the UGST site ...

http://www.ugst.org/uploaded/faculty...r_Teaching.doc
He is not employed full time at UGST, but he does still teach there.

Dr Crownover is a very fine man. I highly respect him.
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  #50  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:31 PM
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Re: Crownover's Holiness PPT: Admits to Traditions

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Originally Posted by Brother David View Post
I'll be on the beach next week - it had better be "okay" for me to be comfortable and to enjoy the time with my family.

... I just hate it when I'm there, laying on a beach soaking up the rays... and then suddenly a bunch of kids are surrounding me and dumping buckets of water on my belly and saying, "Return to the sea! Return to the sea! Free Willy! RETURN TO THE SEA!!!"

Where do those kids come from anyways?

Nice. And we are looking at another foot of snow. I think I have died and gone to hell. It may be hot there but they must have snow storms once a week.

Enjoy the beach.
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