Deathbed Salvation

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Why does it matter when someone obeys the Gospel? The only thing that matters is that a person does obey it.

Until the last breath, there is hope.

This is the trouble with salvation by tongues. No one in the Bible was ever commanded to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those who believe 2:38 does command a person to speak with tongues remove the gift aspect of the promise and experience.

In other words, if I can make myself speak in tongues, it's not a gift from God at all. The experience would be produced by flesh instead of His Spirit.

"The wind blows where it wants to" is what Jesus said.

Further, even if a person experiences tongues while on their deathbed, how will they be baptized? And if they are not baptized, according to Apostolics, they are still Hell bound-even though they've been baptized with God's Spirit.

It's all very convoluted.

The dotrine is rife w inconsistencies scripturally and pragmatically.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

So what about all those living in the American continents after the events of Acts chapter 2?

I feel compelled to rely upon the manner which apostle Paul's proclamation serves to answer your inquiry:

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them," (II Corinthians 4:3-4)

Oh yes, I know! You're going to reply, "But these folks live way down there in the jungle where there are no Apostolic preachers to tell them of the gospel of Christ, so how are they to ever know whether there even be a God, right?" Well, if that be your response, I would remind you of these two things:

1.) There was a time when their ancestors lived where there was truth readily available, but they chose to neglect it and, in fact, flee from it by travelling to such remote & desolate locales to live. Perhaps these are among the first to bear the blame for their ignorance.

2.) The writer of Romans advises us that even in the absence of a Bible by which one might learn of what God demands of them to be reconciled unto Himself, nature itself bears witness to the fact that there is a God (and remember this also - Abraham, as well as all those who lived prior to Moses' writing of the 1st five books of the OT, didn't possess any written document which told them of God and His relationship with man):

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [which means "divinity"] so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20, KJV, emphasis added)

I am unable to add more to these explicit statements of Scripture!

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Why does it matter when someone obeys the Gospel? The only thing that matters is that a person does obey it.

Until the last breath, there is hope.

This is the trouble with salvation by tongues.

The problem with salvation by tongues is that nobody preaches that tongues save you.

Stop with this intellectually dishonest foolishness.

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

No one in the Bible was ever commanded to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those who believe 2:38 does command a person to speak with tongues remove the gift aspect of the promise and experience.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" John 20:22

That's command enough for me. As for the tongues, you don't command people to receive the evidence of a necessary experience, the evidence will just come once they get it.

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

In other words, if I can make myself speak in tongues, it's not a gift from God at all. The experience would be produced by flesh instead of His Spirit.

"The wind blows where it wants to" is what Jesus said.

Further, even if a person experiences tongues while on their deathbed, how will they be baptized? And if they are not baptized, according to Apostolics, they are still Hell bound-even though they've been baptized with God's Spirit.

It's all very convoluted.

God is not remotely as stupid as you people seem to think.

If God in his for knowledge knew that if you would follow the full plan of salvation if you were healthy enough to do so, why would he allow you to get to the point of laying on your death bed before you repent?

I had this one lady (she's COGIC, and has the Holy Ghost but not the baptism) ask me well what if I had the Holy Ghost one day and got hit by a bus on my way to baptized the next?

I thought in my head, how stupid and childish do we really think God is? THAT'S NOT EVEN A LEGITIMATE ARGUMENT.

God is faithful in completing his plan of salvation and keeping and preserving all those who truly wish to seek him, he is a just and HOLY God. He therefore has requirements for his plan of salvation that deal with the question of sin. However he also knows the heart of the sinner, and will through his knowledge of the heart make provision in due time and do what ever is necessary to insure the salvation of the pure at heart.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Lafon

The apostle Paul, writing to the saints at Rome, says to them, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9)

It appears Paul believed if one did not possess the Spirit of God dwelling in them [at the moment of their death] they are not considered as one of His saints. If such be the case, then I experience extreme difficulty in accepting the assertion that a simple acknowledgement of Christ Jesus as Savior when one is upon their "deathbed" can be construed as sufficient for salvation.

The Spirit is granted upon confession. I John 4:15

Concerning the thief on the cross alongside Christ Jesus, to whom our Lord gave the assurance that he would be with Him in paradise after his death [he did die that day, even before our Lord did, you know], it has already been said by another that because the thief died before the new covenant became effective, then his repentance and confession of Christ as the Savior was sufficient for his salvation.

So salvation under the law was easier than salvation in the NT?

Two things of note here: 1.) Under the terms of the Old Covenant the repentant person was required to confess his sins while offering a lamb without spot or blemish upon the altar, and 2.) without the giving of blood there was no remission of sins.

In the thief's case he had the required Lamb there on the altar with him, and he did repent, therefore Jesus was compelled to accept and acknowledge his repentance, thereby remitting his sins. [Remember - the thief died before Jesus' death, albeit His blood had already been spilt upon the cross, which served as the thief's (and our) altar.] Because the Holy Ghost was not given until after Christ Jesus was glorified, then the terms of the Old Covenant were still in effect when the thief repented and died.

This doesn't make sense. The theif dies before the sacrifice is complete. Jesus didn't say "it is finished" yet. The man died before Jesus did, you said so yourself. Your legalistic approach to salvation is apparent here. Look how meticulous you are about the details of your explanation. The fact is the man expressed faith in Jesus and Jesus forgave him and that's all that he had to do.

It has also been mentioned that James' statements concerning one who is sick, that they are to call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. This, of course, is all truth!

However, one must note that James was writing these things to Christians, and not to sinners, therefore the instructions which he gave regarding what a Christian is to do should they be sick, simply cannot and does not apply to sinners! [Read James 1:1-2)

This is another fallacious interpretation of scripture. The idea that none of epistles contain information pertinent to sinners is completely designed to preserve OP doctrine. There are too many landmines in the epistiles for OPs. Why isn't the A238 plan of salvation communicated one time in the epistles? If that was truly the gospel, wouldn't you think it woukd at least get a nod? You don't think OPs preach to each other and remind one another about A238? They do it every time they get together! It stands to reason that the epistles would have many references to the A238 plan of salvation, let alone one reference. But it doesn't. Not even Acts is consistent. Out of 19 recorded conversions only 5 (and that's being generous) contain the three step elements. And do you believe that the saints thsat James wrote to only prayed for believers? Did they ever pray for sick sinners too?

Lastly, we find it written in Psalm 145:17 that "The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Simply stated, this means that God is not a respector of persons, and what He does for one then He is compelled to do the same for all others. Accordingly, seeing that the means of salvation since the birth of the New Testament church in Acts 2, then repentance, baptism by immersion in water in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost as evidence by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is that which everyone must do, without exception whatsoever!

In aknowlodging the truth that ALL are required to take heed to and obey Acts 2:38, then would it not be an unrighteous thing for God to grant etenal salvation to one who only repents (the matter of when this occurs, upon a death bed or elsewhere should have NO bearing)? Of course! But remember, He is righteous in ALL his ways!

If the repentant one presents his case to Jesus at judgment, using the excuse that he could not be baptized or receive the Holy Ghost because of the circumstances at the moment of his death, then how could Jesus, in accordance with righteousness, grant an exemption when that person had lots of opportunity to do these requirements BEFORE he ever came to his death bed?

That's not being harsh.... simply stating it the way which the Bible states it!

Jesus told the parable of Matt 20 in which he says to those who reason like you do that He wouldn't be fair to reward eleventh hour laborers the same as those who worked all day, "Its none of your business, I can do what what I choose with my money." You can judge God as unjust for saving a dying man who has lived a less than stellar life, but the truth is by that measure none of us have any hope because His mercy toward any of us is undeserved. If He's going to accept your faith and forgive you but He denies the dying man, He is a respecter of persons.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Lafon

The apostle Paul, writing to the saints at Rome, says to them, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9)

It appears Paul believed if one did not possess the Spirit of God dwelling in them [at the moment of their death] they are not considered as one of His saints. If such be the case, then I experience extreme difficulty in accepting the assertion that a simple acknowledgement of Christ Jesus as Savior when one is upon their "deathbed" can be construed as sufficient for salvation.

I agree. One cannot be “saved” without having the Spirit of God. However, while tongues are an “evidence” of the Holy Spirit’s presence, I’m cautioned to remember that something can be present without such “evidences”. Paul also wrote,

I Corinthians 12:3
{12:3} Wherefore I give you to understand, that
no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus
accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord,
but by the Holy Ghost.

This is because given man’s carnal nature, the carnal mind will not accept the things of God, nor can it. If one can call Jesus Lord, the Spirit is definitely at work. On the day of Pentecost the 120 were gathered together on account of Christ’s command that they might receive “power” from on high. This power was to be witnesses in the earth. A man on his deathbed doesn’t necessarily need such a powerful demonstration. He needs salvation.

Concerning the thief on the cross alongside Christ Jesus, to whom our Lord gave the assurance that he would be with Him in paradise after his death [he did die that day, even before our Lord did, you know], it has already been said by another that because the thief died before the new covenant became effective, then his repentance and confession of Christ as the Savior was sufficient for his salvation.

Two things of note here: 1.) Under the terms of the Old Covenant the repentant person was required to confess his sins while offering a lamb without spot or blemish upon the altar, and 2.) without the giving of blood there was no remission of sins.

In the thief's case he had the required Lamb there on the altar with him, and he did repent, therefore Jesus was compelled to accept and acknowledge his repentance, thereby remitting his sins. [Remember - the thief died before Jesus' death, albeit His blood had already been spilt upon the cross, which served as the thief's (and our) altar.] Because the Holy Ghost was not given until after Christ Jesus was glorified, then the terms of the Old Covenant were still in effect when the thief repented and died.

I agree with every point you’ve posted. However, I’d like to mention something that you didn’t touch on. Jesus said,

Matthew 9:6
{9:6} But that ye may know that the Son
of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to
the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto
thine house.

We must remember, that Jesus is God. Jesus had authority (and still has authority) to forgive sins on account of who He is. Jesus can just as easily forgive the sins of one crying out on his deathbed as He did the sick and the palsy while He walked the earth. So I agree that God has a program. However, I am also cautious to remember that Jesus is God, and He is sovereign over all creation. We cannot rule out that Jesus would use the very same power and authority for one in such desperate circumstances as being on their deathbed. And in the same breath…I’d also caution…one cannot hold out by thinking that God always saves those on their deathbed.

It has also been mentioned that James' statements concerning one who is sick, that they are to call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. This, of course, is all truth!

However, one must note that James was writing these things to Christians, and not to sinners, therefore the instructions which he gave regarding what a Christian is to do should they be sick, simply cannot and does not apply to sinners! [Read James 1:1-2)

I fully agree. Our point of departure is in that James wrote,

James 5:14
{5:14} Is any sick among you? let him call
for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Notice James wrote, “Is any…”. Any sick, means, “any sick”. According to your interpretation a Christian man couldn’t call on the elders to come pray for his sick unconverted wife or children. Of course such would be absolutely wrong. This comes from a backward introverted “us against them” spirit of modern Pentecost. This perspective fails to see that the ministry of the church isn’t to itself - it’s to a lost and dying world. While many things, if not most things, are written for our benefit… it is written to our benefit that we might GO out into a lost world with the ministry of reconciliation. Therefore, I contend that the promises of James 5:14 stand for anyone for whom the elders are called upon for prayer.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Lastly, we find it written in Psalm 145:17 that "The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Simply stated, this means that God is not a respector of persons, and what He does for one then He is compelled to do the same for all others. Accordingly, seeing that the means of salvation since the birth of the New Testament church in Acts 2, then repentance, baptism by immersion in water in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost as evidence by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is that which everyone must do, without exception whatsoever!

I find this logic flawed because God is no respecter of persons. If God could give a man a last chance for salvation just prior to death in any dispensation (thief of the cross, etc.), the very same opportunity must exist in our own. Therefore, if anyone (or a family member) calls for the elder of an Apostolic Pentecostal fellowship to administer the prayer for the sick as found in James, the sacrament stands to benefit them. And it benefits all in such dire circumstances equally. God is no respecter of persons. The notion that God would only honor or respect those who were healthy enough to obey Acts 2:38 implies that God respects the healthy over the infirm and dying. Why would God, who is no respecter of persons, NOT offer a way in which the sick and dying can approach Him? Therefore, the very premise that God is no respecter of persons is foundational for my view.

In aknowlodging the truth that ALL are required to take heed to and obey Acts 2:38, then would it not be an unrighteous thing for God to grant etenal salvation to one who only repents (the matter of when this occurs, upon a death bed or elsewhere should have NO bearing)? Of course! But remember, He is righteous in ALL his ways!

And Calvinists (many I know very well and dabbled with the doctrine myself) smile and tell the terrified and suffering, “It is God’s will!” Prior to the statement above you mentioned that God is no respecter of persons. Yet here you indicate that your position is that God will only save those healthy enough to obey Acts 2:38 in the typical 21st century fashion. You don’t see a loving God who has made provision for the weak, sick, and infirm. And then you say that this is because God is “righteous”? You just made him a respecter of the healthy and able.

If the repentant one presents his case to Jesus at judgment, using the excuse that he could not be baptized or receive the Holy Ghost because of the circumstances at the moment of his death, then how could Jesus, in accordance with righteousness, grant an exemption when that person had lots of opportunity to do these requirements BEFORE he ever came to his death bed?

The vast majority of people dying in the hospitals have indeed never had an opportunity to be baptized in Jesus name or be filled with the Holy Ghost. First, most don’t know the difference between Jesus name baptism and Trine Baptism. Second, most don’t know what the baptism of the Holy Ghost is. Some have heard of tongues but most have never spoken in tongues and most know very few who have.

Think about this. Perhaps a man is an atheist or life long C&E Christian (as most appear to be). His daughter is in an Apostolic church and has “witnessed” to him on occasion. However, much of what she speaks of is mysterious and sometimes scary. He acknowledges that it appears to be good for her and she appears to be happy. So he says little about it. Then one day he becomes ill and finds himself on his deathbed with little time left and cannot be moved. He is in a lot of pain and he is very weak. Now, God has this man’s full attention. The man certainly missed out on many blessings that could have been his had he called on God sooner. However, the situation is what it is. This man calls on his daughter to pray for him and remembers a story she told about the preacher praying for the sick. And with tear filled eyes, the man asks her to call her pastor. She does. The pastor arrives 30 minutes later. The man is extremely weak now. Only able to whisper. The pastor kneels down beside his bed and they speak. The man tells the pastor that he is scared. Tears well up in his eyes as he explains that he now knows he should have taken all of this more seriously. He explains he never really understood its necessity until now. And he begs the pastor to pray for him. The pastor asks the man if he believes that Jesus is God. The man says yes. He asks the man if he is remorseful for his sins. The man says yes, yes, yes with sobbing cries. The pastor then takes out…the oil. A sacred thing. Something as sacred as any prayer cloth or baptismal water. The oil is no light matter. It is the last sacrament for the most desperate of situations. It’s not a “feel good” tradition. It’s an element by which the minister has the delegated authority to administer the forgiveness of sins in one’s darkest hour (John 20:23; James 5:14). The pastor stands and anoints the man’s head and calls on the name of Jesus. The very same named called upon at the altar. The very same name called upon in baptism. The very same name called upon in prayer. The very same name called upon for healing. The very same name called upon for restoration. The name… above all names. Jesus. As the pastor calls upon the power of the name of Jesus, he prays that God heal and raise the sick to His own glory. He prays that if the man has committed sins they be forgiven him. As the sound of tongues uttered from this pastor and this man’s daughter fill the room in praise for God’s grace, mercy, and healing power…her father slips into eternity.

You mean to tell me that we have no hope regarding this man’s salvation??? I care to differ.

That's not being harsh.... simply stating it the way which the Bible states it!

So… if a congregation member called upon you as a minister or pastor to pray for her lost son who was now dying of cancer in a hospital bed… you’d not go??? You’d not offer any prayer??? You’d not anoint him with oil??? Would you offer prayer and anointing, claiming the healing promise of James 5:14, but not the promise of forgiveness???

I find your position to be typical of what I’ve seen many times. I’ve seen ministers called upon to pray for the sick and dying who are lost. They do so, so as to not emotionally harm their congregation member and loose their membership. After praying with the sick and dying, the sick passes away and the minister gives an awkward and yet shallow promise of a “just God” and how must just “trust Jesus”. Then he slips off into the night to return to his own family. On the way he talks on the cell phone with another minister about another one who just…slipped into Hell. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

It’s time that those who claim Apostolic power…stand up and claim Apostolic authority.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

One can 'believe' whatever they like, but do you 'believe' what Jesus Christ said?

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

If there are deathbed conversions then that would be in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus, and there is not ONE example of death bed conversions in the New Testament other than the thief on the cross who was saved under the Old Covenant while Jesus was still alive.

Spoken like a true Westernized Christian. Remember... in the East hyperbole was a vehicle of emphasis...not didactic teaching of dogma.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

I have heard of this doctrine as being 'fire insurance'. They want to live all of their lives for the devil, and at the very last moment get right with God. That does not work.

First, most have never heard of Acts 2:38 salvation. Second, most who have find it an odd curiosity they give little thought to. Thirdly, those who attend most churches don't understand what they see are often frightened by it. Not all those who neglect to come to God are just "wanting to live for the devil". Many are good people that live good clean and often traditional Christian lives. But "something" draws them to call that ol' time Apostolic preacher.

I was very glad to hear of a man who followed through on his committment to live for God if he would be raised up. I have heard of too many stories of people who made that vow, and then failed to follow up.

Vows shouldn't be made on a deathbed. The seeking of healing and forgiveness is what is needed. Human "vows" in such a moment are just bondage. Just like a man who "vows" never to sin again... it's foolish. Anyone who'd expect such a vow from the dying is spiritually immature. Anyone knows the dying will vow anything. The focus should be on gaining forgiveness and seeking healing. Nothing more. Nothing less. How do you know that God didn't forgive them and heale them...and then they backslid? Happens all the time with the healthy too. It doesn't mean that God didn't forgive and heal in that moment. And what about them backsliding makes you take it so personally so as to deny anyone an opportunity for healing and/or forgiveness on their deathbed? You don't cut a sick and dying person off from God because you've been jaded and don't believe they'll "stick to it". You have no idea how much it might affect them if they are healed and raised up. They might backslide after being raised up. But what does it mean to backslide after being raised up? Does it mean that they don't attend your church? Does it mean that they begin dedicating themselves to living a Christian life they are familiar with? Maybe their family have been Methodist for four generations and they return to their father's Methodist church, testifying that God healed them. Is that "backslidden"? And... how do you know that they will not one day turn back to God should they fall away into sin, remembering how good God was to them when they were dying? Many who face death later reflect on God's goodness in the past... and return to Him.

And let me tell you something... our God loves them so much. He doesn't punch them in the face and get petty because they didn't live for Him long enough. No... he embraces them completely, as though they never left.

The Acts 2 experience is the only way to go. If there is any mercy for those that do not find it, God has not revealed that in His word.

That's only true if I assume that you know all that God's Word has to reveal. See the reason why I don't accept it? I firmly believe that God has revealed otherwise...in His Word.

There is no man who is without excuse for failing to be saved. More than 2/3 of the world no who Jesus is, and He will make a way for the truly hungry to hear the entire truth before they die.

Not true. Many have heard of Jesus and some have actually heard some religious teachings about Him. Few have heard of the Jesus Apostolic churches know.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

RW, God alone is there judge. However, they were slaves to sin and bound for Hell. They worshipped gods of wood, stone, water, air, sky, etc. They practiced human sacrifice, and several other practices forbidden by Scripture. Sadly they were bound for Hell.

The thief actually died in the intertestamental period. Jesus was on the cross taking the sins of the world on Himself. Thus the sacrificial system was now defunct, but the Holy Ghost was not yet poured out. The only opportunity was right then. That was when he was convicted of his sins and repented.

Has nothing to do with timing. Jesus saved the thief because Jesus has power on earth to forgive sins regardless of dispensation. Plain and simple.

[Aquila]

Men of God... you have authority delegated to you. And the means to administer this authority.

John 20:23 (ESV)
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Acts 2:38 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

James 5:14-15 (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The problem is that most of our "ministers" have more loyalty to the orgs that dictate what we must believe than to the Word of God itself. Orgs don't care about the sick and dying. They don't tithe.

You have authority to reach a lost and dying world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, Apostolic men of God. Don't be afraid to use it. I have a little key chain with a vial of anointing oil. When I was in ministry this was something I kept with me at all times in the event that I was called into service to a soul, ANY SOUL. And yes, if I came upon a car accident and I was given opportunity to pray with a dying person laying on the pavement, I'd anoint them and use the authority Christ invested in those who have the Holy Ghost and are baptized in His name.