Healing doctrine: do you agree?

[Aquila]

All miracles are conditional. You'll notice a pattern every time healings and miracles are heavily featured in Scripture. An analytical study will show that there were seasons of the miraculous followed by dry seasons when miracles were very sparse. To understand healing and other miracles understanding the conditions surrounding them is key. One can't just demand or "claim" a miracle.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All miracles are conditional. You'll notice a pattern every time healings and miracles are heavily featured in Scripture. An analytical study will show that there were seasons of the miraculous followed by dry seasons when miracles were very sparse. To understand healing and other miracles understanding the conditions surrounding them is key. One can't just demand or "claim" a miracle.

Right. (As we learned here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...958#post874958, John 14:14 isn't quite accurate, by itself.) And sometimes, the failed miracle can't be explained. It seems to be the way God works. He doesn't want us to know what we did wrong. Was it not enough faith? Sin? Didn't speak the right words? Not according to God's will? (That last one is one of my favorites. It's from 1 John, where it says God will do anything you ask Him to, if He wants to. ) No way of knowing. But that last one could be a good default reason (He didn't want to).

[Timmy]

BTW, the quote in post 1 was from the Assembly of God's "Fundamental Truths". Didn't want that to sway anybody.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Right. (As we learned here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...958#post874958, John 14:14 isn't quite accurate, by itself.) And sometimes, the failed miracle can't be explained. It seems to be the way God works. He doesn't want us to know what we did wrong. Was it not enough faith? Sin? Didn't speak the right words? Not according to God's will? (That last one is one of my favorites. It's from 1 John, where it says God will do anything you ask Him to, if He wants to. ) No way of knowing. But that last one could be a good default reason (He didn't want to).

True. Often God simply doesn't want to. But I think this thought needs to be developed further. For example, my mother died three years ago. Why wouldn't God have wanted to heal her? I think it's important to remember that God isn't FAIR, God is JUST. God knows what's right in all situations. My mother had drifted from the faith for many years. After her heart attack she repented before God and began to talk about returning to a life of prayer and fellowship with God again. Her heart attack really scared her. I rejoiced in her restored relationship with God. We read the Bible some and prayed for a full healing and recovery while she was in her hospital room. That night she had another heart attack and was rendered unconcious. She was taken to Ross Heart Hospital in Columbus where she had a series of heart attacks and eventually we had to let her go. Why didn't God heal her? I don't know. But after much reflection I've come to the conclusion that my mother was closer to God during the time she was in the hospital than she had been in years. Had God healed her to a full recovery she may have drifted from the faith again and died lost. Instead she passed on being in a very close place with the Lord. Her passing may have ensured her salvation.

God sees things we don't see and knows things we don't know. Though things may not seem fair we have to conclude that God is just and will always choose to do what will ultimately benefit us and our loved ones after all is said and done.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So, one of the two things in the atonement is not guaranteed. How about the other one? Is salvation guaranteed?

Exactly.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

Yes, everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, not all who call on him for healing will be.

So, two things provided for us by the atonement: salvation and healing. One of the two things doesn't always happen, even if we think we've met the requirements for it, and the other always does happen? Is there no need to worry about whether we met the requirements for salvation? Is everyone who thinks they are saved really saved? Oneness, Trinity, Roman Catholic, Mormon? Will nobody who thought they were following Jesus actually hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you"?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here is a statement from a certain denomination of their doctrine of divine healing:

Now, before you try to figure out which denomination this is from, please answer: Do you agree with this doctrine, as it is stated?

Yes, I agree.

But, they're going to hell because another man said the wrong words over them during baptism.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, I agree.

But, they're going to hell because another man said the wrong words over them during baptism.

That man that "said the wrong words" might be able to heal the sick and raise the dead... but if he flubbed the baptismal invocation he and everybody else is going to hell.

Nothing is certain about the atonement. Healing is not "guaranteed" and if your preached didn't attend an approve Bible College and drink the kool aid there then even salvation is not guaranteed.

Jesus Christ came to earth, suffered, died and rose for the dead all for a big "maybe."

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Sam

I would agree with that statement. It is my understanding that salvation/healing/deliverance are all the same basic word and that what we call salvation is healing for the whole person -- spirit, soul, and body.

I also believe that "healing for the whole person" was part of the atonement. Notice how both King David and James seem to include healing for body and soul in one thought:

"Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." (Ps 103:2-5)

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:14-16)

I think the question of all being physically healed who ask for it is separate and apart from whether or not physical healing was actually included in the Atonement. I say this because I believe it boils down to a matter of appropriation based on faith. Both the elders who pray and the recipient must exercise faith. In the passage above, James places the focus (vs. 16) on the "effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man". That doesn't mean faith isn't required from the one requesting healing. But here, James specifically focuses on the ones doing the praying.

We know from the Gospel narratives that all who came to Jesus for healing were healed. From what is inferred in Acts, all who came to the Apostles for healing were healed. There are two exceptions: Mt 17:16-21 and Mt 13:54-58. The first instance was due to unbelief on the part of those praying; the second, unbelief on those being prayed for. We know in the first instance that healing was possible, because the child was eventually healed (Mt 17:18). We know that in the second instance, healing was available, because in every other account Jesus healed ALL who came to him.

There is a third exception to why someone isn't healed: it is their time to die (2Kings 13:14). Apart from this, I'm still searching to see if there exists a NT passage which suggests it is God's will for a person to not be healed. So far, I haven't found one.

1Cor 11:28-30 suggests that sickness is incurred in someone's life because they partake of the Lord's Supper "unworthily". We could infer, though, that if this situation were corrected, the sickness would be healed.

[Timmy]

Do any of these exceptions to healing also apply to salvation?