Effective evangelists?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Seems to me that the 5 fold ministry these days is very exclusive and are trying to "protect" their turf from "laymen" desiring to be considered part of this "exclusive" group.



I am a person that "trains" folks(rookies with passion) how to teach the Bible, not just me teach it only.

I "train" folks(rookies with passion) to expertly present themselves and the basic doctrines. As they find folks getting saved through their "teaching" ministry, they are called by God into the 5 fold ministry.(The gift reveals the office)

.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Aaron, are you saying the KJV is inaccurate also?

If so, then we cannot ever agree.

Sean, you are saying unless VS, believes that the KJV translation is 100% accurate you can't agree with what he is presenting you?

Originally Posted by Sean

I believe these ancient translators truly knew what the Greek to English translation should be...every word of it!

Sean, it is comments like this which are truly interesting and cause inquiring minds to want you to clarify. Sean, how do you know that these translators knew Greek better than anyone throughout history after their deaths? Do you use Deuterocanonical books?

Originally Posted by Sean

The "and" or "if" or "the" etc. is irrelevant to the meaning of what the passage is telling us.

Is that what the translators of the KJV believed?

Originally Posted by Sean

It(italicized words) have been carefully placed there to help us understand the Greek to English translation, By ANCIENT men in 1611, that understood this Greek language far better than we could every understand it.

Could you explain how Erasmus, William Tyndale and John Wycliffe know more than modern scholars today? These are comments YOU make that need to be addressed. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Sean

If you would rather bank on new Greek translations to "really see" what the KJV translators "missed"...thats your thing, I wont try to change you.(remove all of the italicized words and come to your own conclusions of the meaning of a passage)

That wasn't what VS was doing, he was taking the Greek which the verse in the KJV was translated from. In the first century the early Church had to read what VS offered you. That is the greater point.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Sure, why not...we can call it the Benincasa Bible!

So, when you make your additions in RED font to the scripture we should call it the Holy Apostle/Prophet Sean Bible?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Seems to me that the 5 fold ministry these days is very exclusive and are trying to "protect" their turf from "laymen" desiring to be considered part of this "exclusive" group.

It's called their gift will make room for them Proverbs 18:16. Thank Jesus that not everything that flies through a church parking lot saying "thus saith the Lord" is accepted. Especially, individuals who believe that everyone needs to learn English all over the world before they can have "God's True Word."

Originally Posted by Sean

I am a person that "trains" folks (rookies with passion) how to teach the Bible, not just me teach it only.

Do you also teach them to NEVER look at a Strong's Concordance or any Greek, or Hebrew dictionary?

Originally Posted by Sean

I "train" folks (rookies with passion) to expertly present themselves and the basic doctrines. As they find folks getting saved through their "teaching" ministry, they are called by God into the 5 fold ministry.(The gift reveals the office)

Good God From Zion!

[mfblume]

I shudder at the pride and ignorance associated with it for those when they stand before God for treating His word the way they do.

[Sean]

Yeah Mike, if they can only see the catastrophe you guys are working on in the debate room...LOL

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by Sean

Here is what I see Paul saying in the passage...




4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all(everyone)spake with tongues but rather that ye(everyone) prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.....

9 So likewise ye,(everyone) except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye(everyone), forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.....

31 For ye may all(everyone) prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted....

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy(everyone), and forbid not to speak with tongues(all of you must speak in tongues also).




Everytime the word "ye" is used, it means ALL of them.

Sean, you miss the forest because you are too busy looking at the trees.

[Sean]

That was a deep rebuttal sis...meow

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

That was a deep rebuttal sis...meow

Is that what you learned at your Dale Carnegie course?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sean

Aaron, are you saying the KJV is inaccurate also? If so, then we cannot ever agree.

While I have my views regarding the accuracy of the King James Version, I realize that this is a red herring. I am fully versed in the KJV. Even within the translation, the question comes back to what Paul asked in 1 Corinthians 12:29:

...are all prophets...?

The obvious answer is "no". Therefore when all are invited/allowed to prophesy two chapters later, it must mean that not all who are invited/allowed to prophesy can be considered prophets, in the way Paul meant his rhetorical question in 12:29.

I believe these ancient translators truly knew what the Greek to English translation should be...every word of it! The "and" or "if" or "the" etc. is irrelevant to the meaning of what the passage is telling us.

It is your right to believe as you wish, but ask yourself:

What qualifies you to make the above claim? How do you know that these not-so "ancient translators truly knew what the Greek to English translation should be"?

None of them were filled with the Holy Spirit. Some of them weren't even experts in Koine Greek. In their preface, the KJV translators even admit to not giving a perfectly literal, word for word translation. They also admit to not being able to perfectly translate every passage, hence why the 1611 version had over 8,000 margin notes.

See here:

An other thing we thinke good to admonish thee of (gentle Reader) that wee have not tyed our selves to an uniformitie of phrasing, or to an identitie of words, as some peradventure would wish that we had done, because they observe, that some learned men some where, have beene as exact as they could that way. Truly, that we might not varie from the sense of that which we had translated before, if the word signified the same thing in both places (for there bee some wordes that bee not of the same sense every where) we were especially carefull, and made a conscience, according to our duetie.

and

Therfore as S. Augustine saith, that varietie of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversitie of signification and sense in the margine, where the text is not so cleare, must needes doe good, yea is necessary, as we are perswaded… They that are wise, had rather have their judgements at libertie in differences of readings, then to be captivated to one, when it may be the other.

Source: http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

You are crying foul about everyone who undertakes to understand the Greek text, because they aren't "expert" enough in your opinion, and yet, you AREN'T expert enough to make a judgment call about the Greek text, either.

The Greek text includes, UNDER INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT words that translate as "and", "if" or "the", and it does make a major difference in how the inspired text should be read and understood.

The King James Version is replete with these translated prepositions. Prepositions are words that modify nouns, whose grammatical duty is to literally "preach" meaning to the reader. To disregard them or as you have done, blatantly say they have no meaning in the understanding of the text is to undermine the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

You really want to go there?

Besides, if "The "and" or "if" or "the" etc. is irrelevant to the meaning of what the passage is telling us" then the KJV translators had no inspiration operating upon them to translate each preposition the way they did. They could translate each kai, gar, ho, tou, eis, epi, and etc. any way they wanted, without changing the meaning since the meaning is "irrelevant".

It(italicized words) have been carefully placed there to help us understand the Greek to English translation, By ANCIENT men in 1611, that understood this Greek language far better than we could every understand it.

So has every other word, obviously, for better or for worse. Take "office of a bishop" in 1 Timothy 3:1. "office of" is not in italics and yet, the phrase isn't in the Greek text upon which the King James Version of the Bible is based.

So why isn't "office of" in italics?

If you would rather bank on new Greek translations to "really see" what the KJV translators "missed"...thats your thing, I wont try to change you.(remove all of the italicized words and come to your own conclusions of the meaning of a passage)

What about banking on the actual Greek text upon which the KJV is based?

As for prophecying...Paul CONCLUDES with saying..."covet to prophecy"...to who?...The Whole Church, or just a couple of saints?.....

I am not against the "whole church" prophesying. Where did I say I was? I've only indicated that prophesying doesn't automatically a prophet make.

Here is what you guys think Paul is saying in this passage...

Not so, friend. I am not against everyone prophesying. I am against the idea that prophesying makes everyone an automatic prophet.

You are looking for ways to EXCLUDE folks from being prodded by Paul to COVET to prophecy, by telling us the above point of view is accurate, and if that does not work, you tell them that the BIBLE is worded wrong!

There's only one accuser of the brethren, Sean. We will be judged by every idle word we speak. Half-baked accusations against a saint not based in reality might cost you down the road.