What is a Cult? - Page 3

Socialite · #21 06-22-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right, but unfortunately a lot of people are taking a lot of liberty in how to define it

We get it! There's multiple meanings, there's multiple meanings, there's multiple meanings

So now that you know how we are referring to it, shall we proceed?

SteppingStone · #22 06-22-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right, but unfortunately a lot of people are taking a lot of liberty in how to define it

Unfortunately many are abusing their power over the simple minded and the weak which in turn is bringing a bad name to such gatherings...

Praxeas · #23 06-22-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I'm not afraid of the word, and I think the pejoratives are rightly earned I guess. And I don't know what Socialite has in mind, but I've seen my share of "mind control" groups.

Can you be serious? You think it's okay for people to give their allegiance to charismatic personalities? How fast until you have kool-aid stains? Can you say "dangerous?" We could be subjective in our definitions. Then we'd discuss "why." I understand some use it as a form of "name-calling." So come up with another name that sums it up. I see nothing positive in what we refer to as "cults" today. I prefer to keep the same, negative word.

1, the word being used, here, does not simply apply to mind control groups. The word as it is used out there does not simply refer to mind control groups. However if you deny the trinity, you are a cult and because of how the word is used, some will associate the word cult not with having a different theological view, but mind control

2. Am I serious? About following a charismatic leader? Absolutely! Just following a charismatic leader, as opposed to a non-charismatic leader, is not a bad thing. Jesus is/was a charismatic leader, is it bad to follow him?

Jesus said
Mat 4:19 And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.

The writer of Hebrews said
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

The early church were admonished to follow the Apostles...maybe some of them were charismatic?
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.

As far as what you said, I never said "allegiance" and I don't know why you felt you had to distort what I said nor what you mean by the word allegiance, but you did not give one reason why it is a bad thing to follow a charismatic leader, let alone an ugly one

pelathais · #24 06-22-2010, 05:09 PM

A manipulative group that just can't seem to find a way to even try and present their views in a reasonable and persuasive manner. "Cults" are usually lead by clever people who are also lazy thinkers. Beating people down is always the method of a lazy preacher.

Praxeas · #25 06-22-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

We get it! There's multiple meanings, there's multiple meanings, there's multiple meanings

So now that you know how we are referring to it, shall we proceed?

No, if that is all you got, you did not get it.

Im trying to point out that any Tom, Donna and Harry can add to the word what ever definition they want. The list is growing. It's incredibly subjective.

By the historical definition of the word, every religious person is a cult member.

This is my 2 cents worth.

Praxeas · #26 06-22-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

So let's not use the word because there are too many definitions? You are sure touchy about this word.

You pretend mind control groups don't exist in many Pentecostal circles. If that was the case, books of the abuse wouldn't fill bookshelves. You are actually defending the whole "all in one leader" idea?

There are dozens of definitions for many words we use. So we defined what context we were using for the word. It's pejorative, it refers to manipulative, exclusive groups. Am I hitting close to home to you or something?

Why do you have to interject a pejorative? You started the topic "what is a cult" and Im giving my opinion. Does my answer somehow offend you?

Also please quote me saying mind control groups exist in ANY Pentecostal circles. I'll give you a chance to apologize for that before I just assume you are lying

Praxeas · #27 06-22-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

A manipulative group that just can't seem to find a way to even try and present their views in a reasonable and persuasive manner. "Cults" are usually lead by clever people who are also lazy thinkers. Beating people down is always the method of a lazy preacher.

t
A person that has no front teeth, plays deliverance on the banjo with his feet and handles snakes while shouting "In jethuth name" and teaches others to do likewise, is a cult

Jeffrey · #28 06-22-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1, the word being used, here, does not simply apply to mind control groups. The word as it is used out there does not simply refer to mind control groups. However if you deny the trinity, you are a cult and because of how the word is used, some will associate the word cult not with having a different theological view, but mind control.

Some call unorthodox views cultic. I get it. Calvin Beisner aside, the thread has not defined it in such a way. And because someone puts on the label doesn't mean it's end-of-discussion. All you've established so far is that some believe Oneness Pentecostals are a cult.

Quote:

2. Am I serious? About following a charismatic leader? Absolutely! Just following a charismatic leader, as opposed to a non-charismatic leader, is not a bad thing. Jesus is/was a charismatic leader, is it bad to follow him?

Jesus said
Mat 4:19 And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.

The writer of Hebrews said
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

The early church were admonished to follow the Apostles...maybe some of them were charismatic?
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.

As far as what you said, I never said "allegiance" and I don't know why you felt you had to distort what I said nor what you mean by the word allegiance, but you did not give one reason why it is a bad thing to follow a charismatic leader, let alone an ugly one

Jesus is the Son of God. Let's square that away for you.

The criteria for the word "follow" (which has MULTIPLE meanings in Greek haha) is "as they follow (the teachings) of Jesus." That's not a blank check. In a fuller sense, all of us are "following" the Apostles. Clearly, yours and my opinion of church government wouldn't be the same. I don't see anywhere a pastoral direction that the people are to give allegiance to a single individual. Even in your often-misinterpreted Hebrews 13 citation, it doesn't boil down to a single individual.

I didn't "distort" anything. "Following" surely doesn't just meaning strolling behind them to the grocery store!

Following a single individual is dangerous. History is replete with examples of leaders who even started with good intentions, but developed a Messianic Complex, and abused people spiritually, emotionally, physically. From a Christian standpoint, all the leading of the church should point to Jesus, not to themselves. To think I have to defend such a ludicrous point to you is really too much.

Jeffrey · #29 06-22-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, if that is all you got, you did not get it.

Im trying to point out that any Tom, Donna and Harry can add to the word what ever definition they want. The list is growing. It's incredibly subjective.

By the historical definition of the word, every religious person is a cult member.

This is my 2 cents worth.

Uh... I think you are being dramatic. Everyone else on this thread is understanding the way the word is used. You are trying to show-off how many word definitions that also include the word. Your ultimate point is still a mystery. You can't seem to understand these cult-like tendencies that people are referring to. You're really struggling with that. Let's make up a new word to define the laundry list of things we've thrown out thus far. Wasn't the thread title "What is a cult?" That's it! You are just saying "it's definition is too broad and too subjective. The end."

I think there was more to the post though. Just speculating.

Socialite · #30 06-22-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, if that is all you got, you did not get it.

Im trying to point out that any Tom, Donna and Harry can add to the word what ever definition they want. The list is growing. It's incredibly subjective.

By the historical definition of the word, every religious person is a cult member.

This is my 2 cents worth.

My thread offered descriptions of religious cults. You may not like the word, but I guess you'll have to get over it. I'm not changing the word. Reign in the way others have used it, and try to understand the post and maybe even contribute some descriptions of your own.

An average joe on the street is not thinking about the Trinity and Oneness. They will identify bizarre religious practices, those that have shunned society, devout allegiance to a man they hold in an unhealthy view, and they'd call that a cult. So let's think like Average Joe's for a moment. Helpful?