Forgiveness is an act of God outside of us having nothing to do with anything we do. It stands as a historic reality whether we accept it or not. We do not repent in order to get God to forgive us. We do not get baptized in order to get God to forgive us. God forgave us 2000 years ago and nothing can be done to change that reality.
When Christ rose from the dead it declared to the world that God's wrath had been appeased in regard to sin. The resurrection declared the historic forgiveness of God.
We do not 'appropriate' the forgiveness wrought by Christ's sacrifice. We hear of it and trust in it.
The command to repent is a command to turn back to God. One can only turn back to God (i.e., repent) THROUGH faith in the risen Christ. One can only turn back to God by trusting in the fact that Christ, 2000 years ago, removed that which kept us separated from God. We can return to fellowship with God because Christ's death resulted in the remission of our sins before God. Having obtained forgiveness of our sins Christ was brought back to life and now sits on the right hand of God forever declaring God's historic forgiveness of our sins.
To believe in the risen Christ is to believe that his sacrifice effected the forgiveness of God 2000 years ago.
If we believe we must do anything in order to get God to forgive us, we reject the forgiveness which happened on the Cross! For if God must forgive us today.... it means he did not forgive us at Calvary. YET, Christ rose from the dead forever declaring the GOOD NEWS that GOD forgave us at Calvary!
Ferd, being forgiven does not save us. We're not saved by God's forgivenes, we're saved by God's life.
Mankind stands forgiven but without life. The historic forgiveness of the Cross made it possible for us to come to Christ for salvation. Salvation is the spiritually dead being brought into spiritual life. Salvation is the spiritually dead being born again into spiritual life. The historic forgiveness of the Cross made it possible for mankind to be granted repentance unto life! He that converts to Christ in repentance has life. He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).
Back to work.... catch you all at some later date. God bless!
I am utterly amazed by the fact that you havent been mauled here by the PCI crowd.
I am shocked beyond shock that this gets a pass and peope nod their heads and clap their hands at what you have written here.
all those passages from John are wonderful. But building a doctrine of salvation on them is like building a house with only 6 foot long two by fours.
2 Tim 2:25 clearly shows a God willing to grant remission at some future date.
2 Cor 7:7-10 clearly speaks to the fact that the people of the church needed to repent! They already believed God. they had already found their place in the church and yet Paul called them to repentance and rejoiced over their renewed repenance.
Adino, you write brilliantly. But your ablity to sound smart does not undo the fact that your writing does violence to scripture.
Here is your problem
John 3:16 (we both believe this) Acts 8:22 (I believe this one. I dont know if you do) 1 Peter 3:21 there is just no way you belive this.
I dont have a problem. the whole bible works for me. Yyou on the other hand have a house built with short 2x4s.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Isn't that the truth! I have enjoyed all of our discussions, jfrog. I always appreciate your input. God bless!
Some thoughts:
I believe that God had the ability to forgive without the death of Christ. To validate this belief I would cite Jesus forgiving the adulteress and Ezekiel 18:21-22.
The traditional understanding is that forgiveness of sins is appropriated to us when we do something (repent or be baptized). For me its impossible to explain the need for the sacrifice of Jesus to allow forgiveness of sins to be appropriated at repentance (or after) when God already said he would forgive our sins at repentance in Ezekiel 18:21-22. So it seems to me that the traditional view makes the sacrifice of Jesus redundant and meaningless in that we would have been forgiven at repentance whether he sacrificed or not (Ezekiel 18:21-22).
I think your view will fair better but I don't have a good explanation as to how yet. If you have any input that would be great! By the way, I enjoy our discussions too.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
I am utterly amazed by the fact that you havent been mauled here by the PCI crowd.
I am shocked beyond shock that this gets a pass and peope nod their heads and clap their hands at what you have written here.
all those passages from John are wonderful. But building a doctrine of salvation on them is like building a house with only 6 foot long two by fours.
2 Tim 2:25 clearly shows a God willing to grant remission at some future date.
2 Cor 7:7-10 clearly speaks to the fact that the people of the church needed to repent! They already believed God. they had already found their place in the church and yet Paul called them to repentance and rejoiced over their renewed repenance.
Adino, you write brilliantly. But your ablity to sound smart does not undo the fact that your writing does violence to scripture.
Here is your problem
John 3:16 (we both believe this) Acts 8:22 (I believe this one. I dont know if you do) 1 Peter 3:21 there is just no way you belive this.
I dont have a problem. the whole bible works for me. Yyou on the other hand have a house built with short 2x4s.
Ferd, what did the cross actually do? I would love to hear your explanation of this.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
I believe that God had the ability to forgive without the death of Christ. To validate this belief I would cite Jesus forgiving the adulteress and Ezekiel 18:21-22.
The traditional understanding is that forgiveness of sins is appropriated to us when we do something (repent or be baptized). For me its impossible to explain the need for the sacrifice of Jesus to allow forgiveness of sins to be appropriated at repentance (or after) when God already said he would forgive our sins at repentance in Ezekiel 18:21-22. So it seems to me that the traditional view makes the sacrifice of Jesus redundant and meaningless in that we would have been forgiven at repentance whether he sacrificed or not (Ezekiel 18:21-22).
I think your view will fair better but I don't have a good explanation as to how yet. If you have any input that would be great! By the way, I enjoy our discussions too.
Adino's and Ferd's intrepations both end up the same, man has to help God to save.
God's purpose was/is to redeem the creation, not because Satan threatened his purpose, rather because God determined for man to know "good and evil" in the process of becoming Sons of God.
God has completed redemption, and now HE is simply calling man to enter into that life. And HE will continue seeking (knocking at each heart) until HE "finds" every wayward sheep. God will complete HIS purpose the final destiny of every man is already settled, it is just a matter of what each will experience in finally returning to the Father.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Adino's and Ferd's intrepations both end up the same, man has to help God to save.
God's purpose was/is to redeem the creation, not because Satan threatened his purpose, rather because God determined for man to know "good and evil" in the process of becoming Sons of God.
God has completed redemption, and now HE is simply calling man to enter into that life. And HE will continue seeking (knocking at each heart) until HE "finds" every wayward sheep. God will complete HIS purpose the final destiny of every man is already settled, it is just a matter of what each will experience in finally returning to the Father.
While I have toyed with the idea of universalism... I can't reconcile that view with many of the parables of Jesus. Take the wheat and tares for example. The tares get totally burned up to nothingness... they aren't burned up until they magically change into wheat.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
While I have toyed with the idea of universalism... I can't reconcile that view with many of the parables of Jesus. Take the wheat and tares for example. The tares get totally burned up to nothingness... they aren't burned up until they magically change into wheat.
I respect your view, but cannot comprehend, God eliminating life that came from him, as all human life did.
Is he too weak, too uncaring, too prevented (by satan or human will)?
He is the Almighty Heavenly Father, and humanity is His creation (children), is His arm too short, is His love to shallow?? What earthly father would give up on his child, as long as it was in his power to correct?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I respect your view, but cannot comprehend, God eliminating life that came from him, as all human life did.
Is he too weak, too uncaring, too prevented (by satan or human will)?
He is the Almighty Heavenly Father, and humanity is His creation (children), is His arm too short, is His love to shallow?? What earthly father would give up on his child, as long as it was in his power to correct?
I agree. Something about an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God that sends men to hell just doesn't seem right. I don't think the solution is in universalism. I think the solution is in dropping the notion that God must be the biggest greatest God imaginable and in accepting that God is what he is. I think that what God is gets best defined by what God does. So, in God's actions I can see power and love and knowledge and even strictness at times. I also see God punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous. In short, I see alot of things in God's actions... and just like our actions don't actually fit perfectly together into one big coherent picture (there is often some dissonance between our actions)... it seems like God's actions are the same way.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
I respect your view, but cannot comprehend, God eliminating life that came from him, as all human life did.
Is he too weak, too uncaring, too prevented (by satan or human will)?
He is the Almighty Heavenly Father, and humanity is His creation (children), is His arm too short, is His love to shallow?? What earthly father would give up on his child, as long as it was in his power to correct?
Having just experienced the birth of our first grandchild, I am assured again of how precious the human, and how valuable. God is not so uncaring that He would continue to allow human life to enter this world just to be destroyed.
I, for years, cried out to God to do something about the masses of His creation that never had a decent opportunity to find Him in their physical lives. The agony of the thought that any would be lost, especially in endless torment.
As I drove down the highway, I would intercede for the lives in the cars that I passed. Finally, He spoke to me, "Do you really thing I care less than you? That I love less than you?" "I have loved every one, and not one is beyond my reach." "I have NOT delegated the care of my creation into the hands of the created, you just come to me and let me be light, I will complete what I have begun." Those words were the greatness freedom and relief in all of my life. Now I declare, "WHAT AN AWESOME GOD!" "HE IS ABUNDANTLY ABLE TO SAVE!"
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
jfrog, you can jump thru as many theological hoops as you want. I am a simple guy from the piney woods of southwest louisiana.
There was an old gentleman back there who lived a hundred years ago. let me quote him for you:
"I dont know much, but what I know, I KNOW".
This is what I know. the bible tells me to believe, repent, be baptized, recieved the holy ghost.... and it even tells me to avoid sundry behaviors.
So you keep trying to figure out everything.
im going to do what us country boys do and just take the word at its word.
Ferd, if you don't want to figure it all out then what's your problem with us as long as we still say repentance is important, baptism is important and receiving the Holy Ghost is important?
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Linear Mode
