Should we teach others to rebel against standards? - Page 25

Sister Alvear · #**241** 04-12-2018, 04:40 PM

`No Jonathan Alvear is not my husband he is my nephew.

1ofthechosen · #**242** 04-12-2018, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I listened most of the video. Not every single minute but most of it. I find it interesting that he starts preaching out of 2 Thess. 2 which is about the post tribulation rapture and saying if you teach something else your deceived. He skips THAT PART...the true context of the chapter and goes into all kinds of OTHER ways one might be deceived.

The rest of the video is pretty much about standards throwing out beards as basically the doorway to sin and unrighteousness. NO SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE mind you. Lots about Apostolic Indentity.

Well to Paul Apostolic identity would have called for someone not to take what HE WROTE in 2 Thessalonians, calling out any idea of a pre trib rapture as deception and change it into preaching about various other topics.

But did the minister warn about the same deception Paul wrote of in the verses preceeding? Nope. Now I will say this and maybe I will be corrected. From what I thought I have read over the years the Alvears believe in the post trib rapture. For that they are to be praised.

So was this a convention of all post trib believers? If not where was the warning like Paul was giving the Thessalonians in chapter 2? Why were the pre tribs in attendance not rebuked as the men who were maybe wearing a beard? How is it men can make a non biblical "standard" more important than the doctrine of the second coming of Christ?

Did you listen to the part about what he said about building a bridge to Trinitarians? Because y'all can try to explain away about beards, at this point I get it you won't do it. No matter who says it. But what he said is the prescription for these last days.

How could you sit here and say someone's ideas about the being pre trib, or post trib matters that way? All that is crazy, because no one living knows what it's going to be for sure. Because it hasn't happened! But, for sure compromise is never satisfied...

Michael The Disciple · #**243** 04-12-2018, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Did you listen to the part about what he said about building a bridge to Trinitarians? Because y'all can try to explain away about beards, at this point I get it you won't do it. No matter who says it. But what he said is the prescription for these last days.

How could you sit here and say someone's ideas about the being pre trib, or post trib matters that way? All that is crazy, because no one living knows what it's going to be for sure. Because it hasn't happened! But, for sure compromise is never satisfied...

Well a bridge to Trins makes sense to me since I once was one. As to what you just said about the rapture I'm stunned. You think unbiblical standards set by a man at his own pleasure bears the same weight of the truth about the 2nd coming of Jesus?

And could you not see how the Preacher cut the context in two about the mystery of iniquity? Paul was teaching ABOUT THE RAPTURE.

He said NOTHING about Pauls context and instead used Pauls words to try to back up his standards! So truth fell in the street but at least all present were ENTERTAINED!

1ofthechosen · #**244** 04-12-2018, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well a bridge to Trins makes sense to me since I once was one. As to what you just said about the rapture I'm stunned. You think unbiblical standards set by a man at his own pleasure bears the same weight of the truth about the 2nd coming of Jesus?

And could you not see how the Preacher cut the context in two about the mystery of iniquity? Paul was teaching ABOUT THE RAPTURE.

He said NOTHING about Pauls context and instead used Pauls words to try to back up his standards! So truth fell in the street but at least all present were ENTERTAINED!

He was speaking of the deception of the spirit of the age we live in. Just look at 2 Thessalonians 2:7 it says "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." In Paul's day it was already at work. Which we see at work daily, because these are truly the last days. So it could be a post trib rapture staple, but as the scripture says "for the mystery of the iniquity doth already work." So everything in that passage Is already going on, and has been since Paul's day!

Eschatology though, is what it Is, only a philosophy. But hanging your hat on prophecy means nothing. If you believe in the second coming that's what matters. When it will happen, and how It will happen no one knows. I just know when it does come, I'm on that train! And hallelujah praise Jesus!

Oh and I was a Trinitarian growing up too. But Acts 2:38 was the bridge! We don't need to findout how they are doing things and exchange ideas, and all these things. God paid for a way that all could be saved and it's Acts 2:38. We don't have to go and seek out and find out how the Mormons or the Jehovah's witness are growing and thriving. What we need is to stand for truth be told out to it, that way we can offer a way to those that are perishing. A hybrid is only man made, and all it is, is polluting the holy seed.

houston · #**245** 04-13-2018, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Is Jonathan Alvear the husband of Sister Alvear?

BIL or husbands cousin. Don’t recall.

Amanah · #**246** 04-13-2018, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

agreed.

The Lemon · #**247** 04-13-2018, 04:18 AM

I have been in the UPCI for nearly 25-years. Yes, there are some ministers who require leadership to be clean shaven. What amazes me is that there seems to be an overall consensus that a majority of UPCI churches feel this way, and that is not so.

There is nothing in the manual about shaving, (yes I know there is no Bible for it either), but there are leaders and pastors who do not prohibit facial hair, it really is not the issue it once was as far as I can tell - I suppose it depends on where you are located.

At any rate, if you sit under leadership and are a leader as well, you must submit to that leader, including shaving if they require that. If you will not submit, staying and rebelling is not an option. Look, beards are not "sin", but having said that, the pastor has delegated authority by God to oversee the flock he is called to lead. Having requirements for leadership is not "wrong".

I'm not trying to throw fuel on the fire, I just think these issues turn into circular arguments at best.

Amanah · #**248** 04-13-2018, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have been in the UPCI for nearly 25-years. Yes, there are some ministers who require leadership to be clean shaven. What amazes me is that there seems to be an overall consensus that a majority of UPCI churches feel this way, and that is not so.

There is nothing in the manual about shaving, (yes I know there is no Bible for it either), but there are leaders and pastors who do not prohibit facial hair, it really is not the issue it once was as far as I can tell - I suppose it depends on where you are located.

At any rate, if you sit under leadership and are a leader as well, you must submit to that leader, including shaving if they require that. If you will not submit, staying and rebelling is not an option. Look, beards are not "sin", but having said that, the pastor has delegated authority by God to oversee the flock he is called to lead. Having requirements for leadership is not "wrong".

I'm not trying to throw fuel on the fire, I just think these issues turn into circular arguments at best.

Sister Alvear · #**249** 04-13-2018, 04:30 AM

Jonathan is our nephew...he is the son of my husband's oldest brother Juan (now deceased) . Juan's father and my husbands father had a mustache! His name was Luiz Alvear. (My father in law) . He was a great man and a good preacher and a christian. It was his custom to wear a mustache...back in the day that seemed to make men from Chile more a man!
Speaking of customs my father in law and mother in law lived with us quite a few years...I never saw him without a coat and tie...even on the hottest days! That was His custom and the custom back in the day for ministers from His country.

They were such a blessing to our home....Pioneers that had crossed the mountains of Chile by bus and foot preaching the gospel. Today I honor their memory.

And for you ladies...I lived with my mother in law and my husband was HER baby...Yet she and I got along...in fact we never had a cross word...She started our ladies work in Brazil! She could quote whole chapters of the Bible by heart...yet like thousands of people back in her day she never learned to read or write!

We must be careful with our words...for they just might come back to haunt us....

1ofthechosen · #**250** 04-13-2018, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lemon

At any rate, if you sit under leadership and are a leader as well, you must submit to that leader, including shaving if they require that. If you will not submit, staying and rebelling is not an option. Look, beards are not "sin", but having said that, the pastor has delegated authority by God to oversee the flock he is called to lead.

Amen this is all I was saying, not whether it was right or wrong. This is the bottom line of the whole thing. Because the Spirit of God, ia not the spirit that is telling you want to rebel against pastoral leadership.

I don't want to talk about beards anymore. Matter of fact from now on if I see it mentioned, I will answer everything but that!