Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Here you are OH Profit of Gospel - do your A/B/C logic on the corrected chapter based on earlier versions of Revelation:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...01&version=NIV

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” (no Almighty, no Alpha, no Omega, no ABC)
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

OOPS huh? Kindly share your next point, thanks. Don't say I didn't warn you though.

If the text doesn't suit you, get another version until you find what you want.

Really good study habits.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

A couple of dead Greek letters friend. If your entire belief system is based on this while ignoring direct descriptions that place Jesus in one place (near God) and God in a completely different place (descriptions that place Jesus exactly where Jesus himself said he would be) the panic you seem to demonstrate while begging someone else to just "believe this as I do" is probably warranted. I was waiting for you to come up with something else but you seem stuck so I'll help you out.

What you do not seem to know is this:

Several later manuscripts repeat "I am the Alpha and Omega" in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus

I truly hope that your entire belief system does not rest on these words supposedly "stated by Jesus" that do not actually exist in the original manuscripts. If you reference the original manuscripts, it is actually your argument and not mine that falls flat. Remove these words from 1:11 - my position stands, what happens to yours?

But you knew that, because you get paid to know that - right? Me - if I bought your teaching I'd be asking for my money back. Go back to Rev 22 and read what happens to those who change even a word of that book?

You like Catholic Manuscripts I see. Hmmm...

Polytheist.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Revelations 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This verse speaks of the same person who said in Revelation 1:11

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And who said in Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

This same one who is alpha and omega who lives and was dead also is called the beginning of the creation of God. How can you claim "the beginning of the creation of God is the almighty?" How can you say the created is the creator?

Coupled together with the fact that He is the Almighty, all this is very clear. God manifested in flesh while remaining God at the same time. But we said that dozens of times.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Except the original manuscripts

Original Manuscripts. Are you serious? There are no extant original manuscripts! The ones you cite are Catholic manuscripts form the Alexandiran line that are so questionable because the line of those who "preserved" them felt led of God to edit them. And they are not ORIGINAL but alleged to be OLDEST. Far cry from original.

Do you know where the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus came from? The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican from their looting for centuries and no clue is known where it originated. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash biin in a monastery on Mt Sinai used to start fires.

So you really need, as I told you days ago, to find another book besides Revelation to make your point.

You would like that, wouldn't you. But then there's John 1:1, 14, Isaiah 9:6. Hebrews 1 calls the Son GOD. I could go on and on. But you cannot deal with the text as is in the KJV in Rev 1. You still have not explained it. You dismiss it when it is not in favour with your belief. How dangerous is that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Jfrog says I am a white man and an american. Mfblume says I am a white man. Since mfblume said he was a white man and since a white man is an american then logically mfblume must be an american.... That's what your saying.

Misrepresentation. You cannot deal with what I am actually proposing.

There is only one Alpha and Omega, J. Good grief.

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Sorry, guys. But too much plain old dishonesty here.

[shazeep]

several years ago i took a personal journey to define God for myself; was Christ God, etc. Long story short, i don't think it's a good idea to try to define God too much in what can only be human terms; the preserved stories of the common misperceptions of Christ in His day--which each of us must own at least one of--strongly indicate to me that we are not equipped to do this. it is the equivalent of the trinny/uni thing, in a different dress. the worst side effect is that, having arrived at what you feel is an accurate definition of Christ, let alone God--Whom you may only approach through Christ anyway--you will inevitably feel called to defend this definition; to devolve into a fatal--on some level--skirmish that surely resembles nothing so much as a group of four year olds discussing where babies come from, on some level. God is the head of Christ; ergo, Christ is not God; on some level. Unshrivel your pov's a bit, guys; i think you are all correct in some sense. i find it a powerful testimony that the Qur'an, which insists on One God, also insists that those who do not follow Christ are doomed. "God is the head of Christ" is a poetically wonderful way to express the relationship, imo. peace to you!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Misrepresentation. You cannot deal with what I am actually proposing.

There is only one Alpha and Omega, J. Good grief.

You serious? I can do that too. There's two alpha and omega's. Good grief mfblume.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” 33 says the Lord God – the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come – the All-Powerful! 34

33 tc The shorter reading “Omega” (ὦ, w) has superior ms evidence ({א1 A C 1611}) to the longer reading which includes “the beginning and the end” (ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος or ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος, arch kai telo" or Jh arch kai to telo"), found in א*,2 1854 2050 2329 2351 ÏA lat bo. There is little reason why a scribe would have deleted the words, but their clarifying value and the fact that they harmonize with 21:6 indicate that they are a secondary addition to the text.

34 tn On this word BDAG 755 s.v. παντοκράτωρ states, “the Almighty, All-Powerful, Omnipotent (One) only of God…(ὁ) κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ π. …Rv 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7; 21:22.”

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Revelation+1

1:8 are God's words, not the words of Jesus

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Original Manuscripts. Are you serious? There are no extant original manuscripts! The ones you cite are Catholic manuscripts form the Alexandiran line that are so questionable because the line of those who "preserved" them felt led of God to edit them. And they are not ORIGINAL but alleged to be OLDEST. Far cry from original.

Do you know where the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus came from? The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican from their looting for centuries and no clue is known where it originated. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash biin in a monastery on Mt Sinai used to start fires.




You would like that, wouldn't you. But then there's John 1:1, 14, Isaiah 9:6. Hebrews 1 calls the Son GOD. I could go on and on. But you cannot deal with the text as is in the KJV in Rev 1. You still have not explained it. You dismiss it when it is not in favour with your belief. How dangerous is that?

Are YOU serious? You peddle $10 messages on a website from a book collated by the Council of Nicea, cannot shake me from my belief that there is just the One God, and then accuse me of being a catholic and polytheist?

It's your book not mine oh profit. It's so full of holes it leaks everywhere.