Total depravity

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Esaias, ye do err, knowing not the Scriptures or of what you are speaking...

Even Armenianism believes in total depravity. It's NOT strictly a Calvinist position. Armenianism holds to "prevenient grace". Calvinism holds to "irresistible grace". Summed up in a nutshell, total depravity means that we are all absolutely fallen and to be saved God Himself must draw us and open our hearts before we can freely respond to the Gospel. This is EXACTLY what the Scriptures teach. Let's examine the Bible...

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

John 16:7-8 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Romans 1:18-19 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.


Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Acts 16:29-30 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

The difference between Calvinism's notion of total depravity and the Armenian notion of total depravity is that when God draws the soul to salvation... Calvinism holds that it is irresistible. Armenians do not. Armenians believe that God's prevenient grace CAN be resisted. And there is Scripture for the Armenian position:

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

John 5:34,39,40 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved...You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Thus Calvinism's position of irresistible grace is error... but total depravity is not and Armenian prevenient grace is not.

It is prevenient grace that opens the door that leads to saving grace if accepted:

Ephesians 5:14 For it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Anyone who believes that we are not totally depraved is essentially saying that they believe that we can be saved even if the Father doesn't draw us and that we are all in essence good people. Friends... that is a plank of Universalism.

well said

[Aquila]

Most don't realize that it is the doctrine of total depravity that requires ALL of mankind to be saved. Why? Because if we were not ALL totally depraved... some could choose to be good enough people to be saved without accepting Jesus Christ. Thus, when one rejects the doctrine of total depravity, they undermine the very Gospel of Jesus.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Esaias, ye do err, knowing not the Scriptures or of what you are speaking...

I know the scriptures and I know of what I am speaking. Ye do err, friend.

Even Armenianism believes in total depravity.

I assume you mean Aminianism. I think Armenian Christians are mostly Orthodox? In any event, I'm not too concerned with what Arminius taught, I am not an Arminian.

It's NOT strictly a Calvinist position.

Yes, I know that. I did not bring up 'Calvinism'.

Armenianism holds to "prevenient grace".

Thanks for the lesson in comparative theology, but I have already been there and done that, both Calvin and Aminius, and found both to be sorely lacking in biblical soundness.

Anyone who believes that we are not totally depraved is essentially saying that they believe that we can be saved even if the Father doesn't draw us and that we are all in essence good people. Friends... that is a plank of Universalism.

Friend, I reject the doctrine of total depravity as defined by the OP in this thread. On a side note, I also reject the doctrine of 'total depravity' as expounded by both Calvin and Arminius, the Westminster divines, Edwards, Hodge (both of them), and Augustine for that matter. And, I do not believe nor am I saying I believe that 'we are all in essence good people' (whatever that is supposed to mean) nor am I saying 'we can be saved even if the Father doesn't draw us'.

You really need to quit building straw men, Aquila.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Most don't realize that it is the doctrine of total depravity that requires ALL of mankind to be saved. Why? Because if we were not ALL totally depraved... some could choose to be good enough people to be saved without accepting Jesus Christ. Thus, when one rejects the doctrine of total depravity, they undermine the very Gospel of Jesus.

Here is where you make a categorical error. You talk about people being 'saved' by being 'good enough without accepting Jesus Christ'. In fact you make several categorical errors. First off, the bible does not speak of us 'accepting Jesus', it speaks of God accepting us in Christ. Second, the very concept of 'being saved' requires by definition something to be saved from, a need to be saved. Which automatically rules out 'being good enough to be saved without Christ'.

Finally, when one rejects the unbiblical doctrine of total depravity, one does not undermine the gospel of Jesus. In fact, the very opposite is true.

Consider: The doctrine of total depravity asserts numerous things, but one of which is total natural inability to repent or to do anything but sin. This means that sinners can't help themselves. They have no control over whether or not they sin. Thus, God's commandments cannot be obeyed, due to people's 'natural inability' (or total depravity, if you want to call it that). Thus, sin is not violation of God's law requiring satisfaction to Justice. Instead, sin is an affliction, a disease. Because people are unable to do anything but sin, it follows necessarily that people have no moral character, because they have no moral obligation.

People therefore (according to this doctrine of total depravity) actually have no moral obligation to obey God. A person cannot, by the very definition of the term, be obliged (obligated) to do what is an actual impossibility. Therefore, people's failure to do right and obey God (including their failure to repent and believe the gospel) cannot be a moral failing, that incurs guilt. For God to demand upon pain of eternal death that which is an actual impossibility is to make God a tyrant, arbitrary, and unjust.

The doctrine of total depravity has God, making all of us incapable of obeying Him, then demanding we obey Him, then damning us to hell because we did not obey Him, when He Himself is the one who made us unable to obey him.

Arminius escapes the obvious ridiclousness of that conclusion by supposing a 'gracious ability' whereby all men are actually unable to obey God, but God gives 'prevenient grace' in such a way that all men are now able to obey God (by an act of his grace). Unfortunately, the solution does not solve the puzzle, for if man's ability to obey God is strictly limited to a 'gracious ability', then when man lost his 'ability to obey God' via the fall, he lost his obligation to God to obey him.

Furthermore, in order for God to righteously require obedience of such 'totally depraved men', he must give them the ability to obey. And thus, 'gracious ability' has no grace in it whatsoever, because the granting of such ability is an act of Justice, not Mercy.

In any event, people cling to their notions and doctrines, which were unknown to the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ, never thinking it a strange thing that none of the Bible authors ever mentioned 'inability' or 'total depravity', anymore than they mentioned' three persons in one essence'.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here is where you make a categorical error. You talk about people being 'saved' by being 'good enough without accepting Jesus Christ'. In fact you make several categorical errors. First off, the bible does not speak of us 'accepting Jesus', it speaks of God accepting us in Christ. Second, the very concept of 'being saved' requires by definition something to be saved from, a need to be saved. Which automatically rules out 'being good enough to be saved without Christ'.

You're glossing over quite a lot here. God does accept us in Christ in accordance to His foreknowledge, election. And yes, God's prevenient grace calls out and awakens the soul to it's need for salvation. In the end... we can either choose to surrender or reject this call.

Finally, when one rejects the unbiblical doctrine of total depravity, one does not undermine the gospel of Jesus. In fact, the very opposite is true.

Consider: The doctrine of total depravity asserts numerous things, but one of which is total natural inability to repent or to do anything but sin. This means that sinners can't help themselves. They have no control over whether or not they sin. Thus, God's commandments cannot be obeyed, due to people's 'natural inability' (or total depravity, if you want to call it that). Thus, sin is not violation of God's law requiring satisfaction to Justice. Instead, sin is an affliction, a disease. Because people are unable to do anything but sin, it follows necessarily that people have no moral character, because they have no moral obligation.

That's one way of looking at it, but I think it's incomplete. You see, Paul spoke of those prior to conversion being "servants" (slaves) to sin. We read about how they were led away to the worship of idols and are led astray at Satan's whim. Man wasn't originally a slave to sin. Man originally didn't have a fallen, sinful, totally depraved nature. Sin brought this into the picture. Since that time man has been a slave to sin. Totally depraved by nature. The Law of God isn't designed to "set the sinner straight" or be a guide to help the sinner "do better" and be saved. In fact, it was given to be a "ministry of death" a law to testify against man. In essence the Law was given full well knowing that man was so depraved he couldn't keep it without divine assistance. Therewith... the Law serves to show us how depraved we are and testifies to all creation how depraved we are. Thus, through the Law, God's holiness is revealed... and our absolute depravity revealed. Now, God's plan includes one way of escape from judgment... the cross. It is the fact that we are totally depraved that forces us in a corner... believe in Christ Jesus and His Gospel... or perish.

The Law was impossible to keep. And it was for this reason that God provided ordinances and sacrificial systems to atone for sin. Remember, all of these were symbolic types of Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. If the Law could be kept by will power... God wouldn't have offered a sacrificial system or even the cross for that matter. This is why Paul explained that if righteousness came by the law... Christ died in vain.

People therefore (according to this doctrine of total depravity) actually have no moral obligation to obey God. A person cannot, by the very definition of the term, be obliged (obligated) to do what is an actual impossibility. Therefore, people's failure to do right and obey God (including their failure to repent and believe the gospel) cannot be a moral failing, that incurs guilt. For God to demand upon pain of eternal death that which is an actual impossibility is to make God a tyrant, arbitrary, and unjust.

I don't see it that way. I see it that the Law testifies against man's sinful nature PROVING to all creation how depraved man truly is. Thus making God justified with condemning all of mankind for sin. It forces man into a place wherein to be saved He must believe in the Gospel and receive the Holy Ghost. Without the impartation of the divine nature via the Holy Spirit living in our own spirits... we are slaves to sin on account of our totally depraved sinful nature. When God's prevenient grace opens the eyes of the sinner up to how depraved and helpless they are against sin... their only recourse is to flee to the cross... or be damned.

The doctrine of total depravity has God, making all of us incapable of obeying Him, then demanding we obey Him, then damning us to hell because we did not obey Him, when He Himself is the one who made us unable to obey him.

Nope. It has God created us perfectly righteous and holy. It was Adam who chose to sin, and in Adam we ALL came under the condemnation of spiritual death. Being spiritually separated from God our carnal nature turned to it's base and sinful instincts which are totally depraved. We became devils. It's only through God's grace that we can be saved and receive a new nature that can bring us victory over sin and self.

Arminius escapes the obvious ridiclousness of that conclusion by supposing a 'gracious ability' whereby all men are actually unable to obey God, but God gives 'prevenient grace' in such a way that all men are now able to obey God (by an act of his grace). Unfortunately, the solution does not solve the puzzle, for if man's ability to obey God is strictly limited to a 'gracious ability', then when man lost his 'ability to obey God' via the fall, he lost his obligation to God to obey him.

That was so convoluted, I am convinced you really don't grasp the Armenian notion. Seeing that man is fallen and totally depraved, God has to call a man to salvation. This is done through the drawing of the Holy Spirit (God given spiritual conviction, thirst, and desire)... coupled with the preached Word. When these two mix... the Gospel reveals to the sinner their absolute depravity and need of Christ's Gospel. How can anyone be saved unless they hear the Gospel? How can any man come to the Son if the Father doesn't draw them? How can anyone hear the Gospel unless someone is sent to preach??? Man is DEAD in sin. In Adam we all died. Absolute and total depravity. The Law reveals this and forces us to our knees before the cross. GUILTY AS CHARGED is our only plea.

Furthermore, in order for God to righteously require obedience of such 'totally depraved men', he must give them the ability to obey. And thus, 'gracious ability' has no grace in it whatsoever, because the granting of such ability is an act of Justice, not Mercy.

Oh, He MUST huh??? Sorry, I don't see it that way. God doesn't have to do anything. It was man who rebelled in the Garden of Eden and then continued their sinful rebellion against God throughout human history. God gave the Law to reveal the sinfulness of sin. To reveal how depraved we are. And God provided the sacrifices to atone for sins... because He knew we'd be unable to keep it. And these sacrifices foreshadow Christ's sacrifice. And it is through Christ's sacrifice that we receive the Holy Spirit and receive a new inner nature that is capable of obedience.

In any event, people cling to their notions and doctrines, which were unknown to the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ, never thinking it a strange thing that none of the Bible authors ever mentioned 'inability' or 'total depravity', anymore than they mentioned' three persons in one essence'.

Again... if you have the ability to keep the law in it's entirety without ever violating it... do it. You'll never need to confess your sins or repent again. However, the moment you do... you've proven your inability to live according to the Law. Thereby... proving my point.

Live it. That's all I'm asking you to do. LIVE what you preach. If you believe you're capable of fulfilling the Law... do it. Don't sin any more. If you can't do that, you're proving my point to me over and over and over.

On a side note... ya know what they call people who don't actually live what they preach right? Think about it.

[Aquila]

God didn't make man totally depraved. God made man sinless and holy. When man chose to rebel against God, man became spiritually separated from God... as a result of this separation man became totally depraved.

[Aquila]

It is written...

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who can approach God freely without prevenient grace? No man. A man must be drawn by God (prevenient grace).

[Aquila]

Are we totally depraved? What resides in the core of man???

•Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
•Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
•Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
•Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were... foolish
•Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
•Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish... Every man is stupid and without knowledge
•Matthew 15:19 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
•Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth.
•Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
•Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

[Aquila]

The point is... without God... we are vile, wretched, sinful, debased, and totally depraved creatures. Hopeless without grace. And it is by God's grace that a person even hears the Gospel (prevenient grace). It is by God's grace that one is convicted of their sins or comes to a place of spiritual thirst (prevenient grace).

[Aquila]

When a person speaks of God opening their eyes to the truth of the Gospel... giving them a revelation of it's truth (while they were yet sinners)... that's prevenient grace.