Who are the Saints in this verse?

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Chan

This is where you are in error!

This is where you are in error. The very idea that one giving their blood in martydom is effacatious for salvation is gross error.

While those who put their trust in Christ after the "rapture" are not part of the Church, they do have a place in God's kingdom just as the Old Testament saints (who also didn't have the Holy Ghost) do.

Of course I would believe it if you had scripture for it. But, since you do not but rather only an interpretation of a scripture, your interpretation is error. No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation.

Are you saying that Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the various other Old Testament saints aren't saved? Are you saying they're burning in the lake of fire (since, in your mind, the only people who are saved are those who obeyed Acts 2:38 as you wrongly interpret it and not as it is actually written)?

Why would you assume that I would say such an absurd thing as this. All OT saints were covered by the blood of Jesus, looking forward in obedience to the Word, to the cross of Jesus. Peter said in his first epistle that they also had the Spirit of Christ in them.

No Spirit of Christ...no salvation. Anything else is error. So is the Friends doctrine.

The word "saints" are applied to those who have bee sanctified.

How are saints sanctified? They are sanctified by the HOLY GHOST...and not by shedding their own blood.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

When the Spirit of Christ is gone the sanctifing power will also be gone.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

This is where you are in error. The very idea that one giving their blood in martydom is effacatious for salvation is gross error.

Not that I even said anything remotely suggesting that martyrdom was what saved them. If you're going to disagree with me, I'm going to have to insist that you disagree with what I said and not with what you think I said!

Of course I would believe it if you had scripture for it. But, since you do not but rather only an interpretation of a scripture, your interpretation is error. No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation.

And you don't have any scripture showing that the Old Testament saints (such as those listed in Hebrews 11) are not part of God's kingdom (even if they're not part of the Church) or that those who are martyred during Daniel's 70th week are not part of the kingdom. Now, consider Revelation 6:9-11, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Why would you assume that I would say such an absurd thing as this. All OT saints were covered by the blood of Jesus, looking forward in obedience to the Word, to the cross of Jesus. Peter said in his first epistle that they also had the Spirit of Christ in them.

No Spirit of Christ...no salvation. Anything else is error. So is the Friends doctrine.

Because in your mind the only people who are saved are those who obey Acts 2:38 (as you interpret it). Since the Old Testament saints could not have obeyed a scripture that did not yet exist, and since the Holy Ghost had not yet been given in the Old Testament, you cannot claim Acts 2:38 salvation and also claim that the Old Testament saints were "saved" and, thus, are part of the Church. Also where did Peter say they had the Spirit of Christ in them?

[QUOTE=Chan;102439]

Not that I even said anything remotely suggesting that martyrdom was what saved them. If you're going to disagree with me, I'm going to have to insist that you disagree with what I said and not with what you think I said!

Fair enough.

Suppose you tell us what or who is going to save the martyrs of Revelation since you have already said that the Spirit is gone during that era of time. you have no bible for any other saving agent than the blood of Jesus and sanctification of the Holy Ghost. NONE!

And you don't have any scripture showing that the Old Testament saints (such as those listed in Hebrews 11) are not part of God's kingdom (even if they're not part of the Church) or that those who are martyred during Daniel's 70th week are not part of the kingdom.

Of course not. They ARE a part of God's kingdom, even His church. Even during Daniel's 70th week, all who are saved will be saved the same way...by obedience to the ONE gospel given by the founder of the N.T. church and his Apostles.

Now, consider Revelation 6:9-11, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Do you know anyone who will deny that they DID NOT receive the Holy Ghost? If you do, please tell them for me, they are in serious error for there is NO OTHER plan of salvation.

Because in your mind the only people who are saved are those who obey Acts 2:38 (as you interpret it). Since the Old Testament saints could not have obeyed a scripture that did not yet exist, and since the Holy Ghost had not yet been given in the Old Testament, you cannot claim Acts 2:38 salvation and also claim that the Old Testament saints were "saved" and, thus, are part of the Church.

All faulty reasoning.

The OT saints are saved according to "the promise." The promise is the faith of Abraham of which we are the children of the promise. The Holy Gost salvation is "the promise." The seed is counted unto promise. The O.T. testament saints are covered by the blood of Jesus having rolled their transgressions ahead year by year unto the cross. That's bible.

Also where did Peter say they had the Spirit of Christ in them?

In first Peter 1:11.

All of your reasoning is faulty without a scriptural base.

[Michael The Disciple]

Pre trib rapture=second chance salvation=heresy.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Pre trib rapture=second chance salvation=heresy.

A/K/A "another" gospel.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Fair enough.

Suppose you tell us what or who is going to save the martyrs of Revelation since you have already said that the Spirit is gone during that era of time. you have no bible for any other saving agent than the blood of Jesus and sanctification of the Holy Ghost. NONE!

Not that I ever said anything even remotely suggesting that there was another saving agent. Now, consider Revelation 14:1-7...

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Consider also Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

In the timeline of events, these are things that occur after the Church is taken from the Earth (along with the Holy Ghost).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, Paul tells us "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." The "what withholdeth" and "he who now letteth" is the Holy Ghost.

Consider also Revelation 21:1-4...

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

This event occurs after the White Throne Judgment. The new Earth is where all the righteous who were never part of the Church (specifically, the Old Testament saints and those who put their trust in Christ after the "rapture" of the Church) will dwell.

Of course not. They ARE a part of God's kingdom, even His church. Even during Daniel's 70th week, all who are saved will be saved the same way...by obedience to the ONE gospel given by the founder of the N.T. church and his Apostles.

But you specifically said, "No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation." Since neither the Old Testament saint nor those who put their trust in Christ after the removal of the Church receive the Holy Ghost baptism, you're saying they're not saved and have contradicted what you said here.

Do you know anyone who will deny that they DID NOT receive the Holy Ghost? If you do, please tell them for me, they are in serious error for there is NO OTHER plan of salvation.

Show me where the Old Testament saints received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and obeyed Acts 2:38. They cannot have received the Holy Ghost because Jesus had not yet sent Him.

Because in your mind the only people who are saved are those who obey Acts 2:38 (as you interpret it). Since the Old Testament saints could not have obeyed a scripture that did not yet exist, and since the Holy Ghost had not yet been given in the Old Testament, you cannot claim Acts 2:38 salvation and also claim that the Old Testament saints were "saved" and, thus, are part of the Church.

All faulty reasoning.

You're the one who specifically said, "No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation."

The OT saints are saved according to "the promise." The promise is the faith of Abraham of which we are the children of the promise. The Holy Gost salvation is "the promise." The seed is counted unto promise. The O.T. testament saints are covered by the blood of Jesus having rolled their transgressions ahead year by year unto the cross. That's bible.

Where does the Bible say this?

[Sister Alvear]

The church is not going anywhere until after tribulation...(well, my opinion) ha...

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Chan

Not that I ever said anything even remotely suggesting that there was another saving agent. Now, consider Revelation 14:1-7...

You obviously forget your own posts.

You said that the Spirit would be gone during the time of this reading.

Since you are saying that there are going to be people saved during a supposed period of time after the Spirit is gone, according to you, that is patently false. There can be no salvation without the Spirit of grace and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Consider also Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

In the timeline of events, these are things that occur after the Church is taken from the Earth (along with the Holy Ghost).

So who said that the church was gone during this time along with the Holy Ghost? Where is that found?

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, Paul tells us "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." The "what withholdeth" and "he who now letteth" is the Holy Ghost.

So what are you saying here?

Who or what is taken out of the way? ARe you saying the Holy Ghost will be taken out of the way? Are you saying that the church will be taken out of the way? Are you saying that the Father will be taken out of the way...the Son taken out of the Way or just who are you talking about here?

Consider also Revelation 21:1-4...

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

I don't think that you understand what the new heaven and the new earth are. If you think that the terra firma and the sky is going to pass away, you are mistaken. The bible say it will abide forever.

This event occurs after the White Throne Judgment. The new Earth is where all the righteous who were never part of the Church (specifically, the Old Testament saints and those who put their trust in Christ after the "rapture" of the Church) will dwell.

Do you have an inkling of what the White Throne Judgment is? It does not appear that you do.

But you specifically said, "No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation." Since neither the Old Testament saint nor those who put their trust in Christ after the removal of the Church receive the Holy Ghost baptism, you're saying they're not saved and have contradicted what you said here.

No sir. I have not contradicted what I said. I only refuted what YOU said.

You said that the Spirit would be gone during this time frame that you have referenced. Yet, you claim that these martyered saints would be saved anyway. I am telling you if they have not the spirit of Christ (since the Holy Ghost is taken) they are none of His, according to Paul.

Show me where the Old Testament saints received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and obeyed Acts 2:38. They cannot have received the Holy Ghost because Jesus had not yet sent Him.

Did I say that the OT saints obeyed Acts 2:38? Of course not! Did I say that they had the Holy Ghost? Yes. I gave you I Peter 1:11. It is in the bible.

You're the one who specifically said, "No Holy Ghost Baptism equals NO salvation."

Yep. I did say it. It is bible.

Where does the Bible say this?

Where does the bible say this? Chan, I am disappointed in you. I would have thought for sure that you knew the scriptues better than that.

Rom 8:9 "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

[Steve Epley]

Being the pre-trib dispensationalist that I am I teach everyone from Pentecost until the church leaves MUST obey Acts 2:38 to be saved. How and what means God will choose to save those AFTER the church leaves I don't know exactly I do know this:
1. They will accept Jesus as Messiah or God (thus NO Trinitarians included).
2. The will wash their garments in His blood.
3. The Holy Ghost will seal them(how I am not sure).
4. They will have a revelation of His name(again how it is applied I don't know).
5. They are faithful unto death.