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  #11  
Old 08-05-2010, 01:14 PM
Socialite Socialite is offline
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave View Post
Indeed. If need be, more than a pastor, a particular church or even, organization. <gasp!>
But amazingly, many Pastors are taking this text and adding:

"Since you have a new family in Jesus, divorce from your old family, reject them (especially those who have left the truth) and wash your hands of them." Appalling. Shocking.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2010, 01:23 PM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
And it wasn't just a brother living in sin, it was a brother living in sin and boasting about it, causing problems in the congregation. This should never be a normative option for elders handling conflict in the church. It should be as exceptional as it was in this example. Furthermore, the man was only expelled a short time -- not excommunicated.
Right, or in open sin. I agree it should never be normative. This was an extreme situation

BTW this is an interesting issue going back to the OT according to the ISBE

eks-ko-mū-ni-kā´shun: Exclusion from church fellowship as a means of personal discipline, or church purification, or both. Its germs have been found in (1) The Mosaic “ban” or “curse” (חרם, ḥērem, “devoted”), given over entirely to God's use or to destruction (Lev_27:29); (2) The “cutting off,” usually by death, stoning of certain offenders, breakers of the Sabbath (Exo_31:14) and others (Lev_17:4; Ex 30:22-38); (3) The exclusion of the leprous from the camp (Lev_13:46; Num_12:14). At the restoration (Ezr_10:7, Ezr_10:8), the penalty of disobedience to Ezra's reforming movements was that “all his substance should be forfeited (ḥērem), and himself separated from the assembly of the captivity.”

he New Testament finds a well-developed synagogal system of excommunication, in two, possibly three, varieties or stages. נדּוּי, niddūy, for the first offense, forbade the bath, the razor, the convivial table, and restricted social intercourse and the frequenting of the temple. It lasted thirty, sixty, or ninety days. If the offender still remained obstinate, the “curse,” ḥērem, was formally pronounced upon him by a council of ten, and he was shut out from the intellectual, religious and social life of the community, completely severed from the congregation. שׁמּתא, shammāthā', supposed by some to be a third and final stage, is probably a general term applied to both niddūy and ḥērem̌. We meet the system in Joh_9:22 : “If any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue” (ἀποσυναγωγός, aposunagōgós); Joh_12:42 : “did not confess ... lest they should be put out of the synagogue”; and Joh_16:2 : “put you out of the synagogue.” In Luk_6:22 Christ may refer to the three stages: “separate you from their company (ἀφορίσωσιν, aphorísōsin), and reproach you (ὀνειδίσωσιν, oneidísōsin = ḥērem, “malediction”), and cast out your name as evil (ἐκβάλωσιν, ekbálōsin).”

Still, personal avoidance may logically correspond in proper cases to excommunication by the church. 2Th_3:14 : “Note that man, that ye have no company with him”; Tit_3:10 : “A factious man ... avoid” (American Revised Version margin); 2Jo_1:10 : “Receive him not into your house,” etc., all inculcate discreet and faithful avoidance but not necessarily excommunication, though that might come to be the logical result. Paul's “anathemas” are not to be understood as excommunications, since the first is for an offense no ecclesiastical tribunal could well investigate: 1Co_16:22, “If any man loveth not the Lord, let him be anathema”; the second touches Paul's deep relationship to his Lord: Rom_9:3, “I myself ... anathema from Christ”; while the third would subject the apostle or an angel to ecclesiastical censure: Gal_1:8, Gal_1:9, “Though we, or an angel ... let him be anathema.”

Clear, specific instances of excommunication or directions regarding it, however, are found in the Pauline and Johannine writings. In the case of the incestuous man (1Co_5:1-12), at the instance of the apostle (“I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit”), the church, in a formal meeting (“In the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together”), carrying out the apostle's desire and will (“and my spirit”), and using the power and authority conferred by Christ (“and with the power of our Lord Jesus”), formally cut off the offender from its fellowship, consigning (relinquishing?) him to the power of the prince of this world (“to deliver such a one unto Satan”). Further, such action is enjoined in other cases: “Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.” 2Co_2:5-11 probably refers to the same case, terminated by the repentance and restoration of the offender. 'Delivering over to Satan' must also include some physical ill, perhaps culminating in death; as with Simon Magus (Act_8:20), Elymas (Act_13:11), Ananias (Act_5:5). 1Ti_1:20 : “Hymenaeus and Alexander ... that they might be taught not to blaspheme,” is a similar case of excommunication accompanied by judicial and disciplinary physical ill. In 3Jo_1:9, 3Jo_1:10 we have a case of excommunication by a faction in control: “Diotrephes ... neither doth he himself receive ... and them that would he ... casteth out of the church.”

Excommunication in the New Testament church was not a fully developed system. The New Testament does not clearly define its causes, methods, scope or duration. It seems to have been incurred by heretical teaching (1Ti_1:20) or by factiousness (Tit_3:10 (?)); but the most of the clear undoubted cases in the New Testament are for immoral or un-Christian conduct (1Co_5:1, 1Co_5:11, 1Co_5:13; perhaps also 1Ti_1:20). It separated from church fellowship but not necessarily from the love and care of the church (2Th_3:15 (?)). It excluded from church privileges, and often, perhaps usually, perhaps always, from social intercourse (1Co_5:11). When pronounced by the apostle it might be accompanied by miraculous and punitive or disciplinary physical consequences (1Co_5:5; 1Ti_1:20). It was the act of the local church, either with (1Co_5:4) or without (1Co_5:13; 3Jo_1:10) the concurrence of an apostle. It might possibly be pronounced by an apostle alone (1Ti_1:20), but perhaps not without the concurrence and as the mouthpiece of the church. Its purpose was the amendment of the offender: “That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1Co_5:5); and the preservative purification of the church: “Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened” (1Co_5:7). It might, as appears, be terminated by repentance and restoration (2Co_2:5-11). It was not a complex and rigid ecclesiastical engine, held in terrorem over the soul, but the last resort of faithful love, over which hope and prayer still hovered.
..................

That's a lot more info than I expected. I've never thought about doing a study on this issue, beyond the verse we both were thinking of with the man having his fathers wife.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2010, 02:00 PM
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drummerboy_dave drummerboy_dave is offline
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
But amazingly, many Pastors are taking this text and adding:

"Since you have a new family in Jesus, divorce from your old family, reject them (especially those who have left the truth) and wash your hands of them." Appalling. Shocking.
Wierd. I'm not willing to confirm or deny the claim you are making that "many pastors" are making the type of error you speak of; but if <-----(that's a very big if) that were the case, the very text used would clearly illustrate that a person's devotion to God must be greater than his or her devotion to their (new) family and therefore defeat the purpose of the lesson.

The type of connection you're asserting reminds me of the blind person leading the blind person. I'd hate to think people couldn't see through such a shallow objective.
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  #14  
Old 08-08-2010, 08:57 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

For by God hating all of the world, he despitefully gave his only Son...
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2010, 06:58 AM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
A friend of mine shared something disturbing from a sermon he heard at a conservative meeting recently. The preacher exhorted the congregation to "have nothing to do" with any family member that has "left the truth." His text? Luke 14.

Thought I'd share the irony. As with most things I'm noticing, there is indeed great irony. For example, when it came to "expelling people" and "having nothing to do with them" the example of Paul and the Judaizers is used. The irony? Those who placed addendums to the simple Gospel were the perpetrators (and of course were physically coming into the community stirring up dissension).

But Luke 14 is even more ironic. Loyalty is a huge value among Pentecostal congregations. Loyalty to the pastor is even preached about. I'd say a Western value would include family (but not as great a value as it was in Jesus' time in the East). So in v25 when Jesus makes His call for discipleship, he is saying that "no matter the cost" (thinking Deitrich Boehnhoffer here) we should follow him. Even if it means ticking off your family, and them hating you for it -- even disowning you! Jesus comes first!

Missing in this exhortation is any instruction for believers to "reject" unbelieving family members. Once again, Biblical literalist, and agenda-happy cultists hijack the word for their own pleasure.
Yah, when I got into the UPC when I was 19 ( a long time ago)it put a big wedge between my family and I. I was taught to expect this and know that I was "pleasing God". Sad.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2010, 07:30 AM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG View Post
Yah, when I got into the UPC when I was 19 ( a long time ago)it put a big wedge between my family and I. I was taught to expect this and know that I was "pleasing God". Sad.
That sounds familiar.

As it turns out, my family has always been there for me; the church, not so much.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

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Originally Posted by geekette View Post
That sounds familiar.

As it turns out, my family has always been there for me; the church, not so much.
That's for sure.
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2010, 05:06 PM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

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Originally Posted by geekette View Post
That sounds familiar.

As it turns out, my family has always been there for me; the church, not so much.
True (my experience as well) yet unfortunate. Unfortunate because I believe the primary meaning to Jesus' words to identify his disciples (by loving one another) is referring to the way the Gospel community treats each other. They don't backbite. They don't push down when no one's looking. They support, encourage, love, confront in person if needed, but are always looking out for the good of each other.

This model was to be seen by others and known as the Jesus Trademark.
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2010, 07:53 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

My church has always been there fore me. Sorry you guys got robbed
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2010, 10:08 PM
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Re: Hate Your Mom and Dad!

I heard a story a while ago about a girl who had to choose between her family and God. She choose God and got kicked out of her home... But on the positive side of that I'm sure God took care of her and shes doing fine.
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