Ishmael & Isaac...

[AmericanAngel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Does the potter not have Power over the clay?

Yes He does..... with so many sanarios(God is imaginitive).....and a free will, freely given to us ! Yeah!

And if there was no other way, this was the way.

If I don't fullfill a request for God,...oh, so many different kind of reasons why...I will loose the blessing and God will raise someone else up to help the individual...a little late, ...shame on me...
it's just an example....

This same example can be applied to Judas. If he wouldn't have...what then?
But we know it took a dark spirit to enter him to cause this (this could be your thery of pre-destined.) But God always gives a way-out, a way to be pardoned...Judas couldn't get over what he did and Peter could.....this had to do with relationship with the Lord ,IMHO.
.....but I don't know everything...I'm not God.

Scriptures tell us that Judas was born the SON OF HELL.. he was BORN to do what he did

[AmericanAngel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Scriptures tell us that Judas was born the SON OF HELL.. he was BORN to do what he did

Well...ther ya go.

[Falla39]

There was a time when men did what was right in their own eyes.

God, who at different times and in various ways, spake in times past to the fathers by the prophets...,

The law was given for transgression (sin) until the "Seed" could come. God made promises to Abraham and
Isaac that in "the and thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

God didn't say "And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to they seed,
which is Christ". God gave His Son the heathen for an inheritance.

Everything was pointing ahead to when Christ would COME. Now we look back to the time Christ CAME. He was that seed in which all the families of the earth would be blessed. Then JESUS came and things changed. Things,
situations, circumstances still change TODAY when JESUS comes! When does
He come? When we all on His Name! His Sheep know Him by Name. They will
not follow another! They know His voice! How! They know the words He spake
when He was here on earth, through His Word. Jesus only SPOKE the words His Father (Holy Spirit) TOLD him to speak. He only DID the things His Father
TOLD him to do. How do we hear the Father's Voice today! By the Spirit and
having His Word in our hearts!

Today IF we will hear His Voice,harden not your hearts as in the provocation.
The time when God was humbling, proving, seeing what was in their hearts
and seeing whether they would obey His commandments or no. (How could He see what was in their hearts? By what was coming out their mouths! Grumbling and complaining, etc.!

He still comes to prove each of us:
He humbles us, proves us during this time, checks our heart, and sees if
we will do His commandments. If we love Him we will have willing hearts:

Ready (willing) to go, ready (willing) to stay;
Ready (willing) my place to fill.
Ready (willing) for service, lowly or great,
Ready (willing) to do His Will.

Jesus said, "IF you love me, keep my commandments". If we love Him,
we will keep His commandments, by obeying His Word (WILL).

Blessings,

Falla39

[jaxfam6]

UMMMM
Ishmael and Issac were not twins as is stated in the second post here. I think it is the second post. SEVERAL years between them and different mothers. That does not constitute twins.

[jaxfam6]

personally I believe that God allows us free will. We are allowed to make mistakes. God knows all things and He knows what stupidity we will choose. He gives us opportunity to make those BAD decisions but when we do he then knows what else will follow. Again he gives us opportunity to NOT make other bad decisions but if we do he will then do it all over again.
I guess He knows all the possible outcomes and what will follow and if they are bad choices he gives us opportunity to not make them.

Take for example my father. God knew what would happen if my dad made the decision to have an affair. God also knew what would happen if my dad chose to do the right thing. Each had a different outcome and God gave him every opportunity to make the right one. He chose to have the affair. God then knew what would take place. It isn't like God waits till we make a decision to form the path he already knows the path and knows that when my father made his decision that many would leave the church. He gives them the opportunity to not do that but he always knows.
We are allowed to make mistakes and be stupid if we want. The nice thing is still loves us when we make our stupid mistakes and will help us and guide us back to His will if we will allow Him and listen to what he is trying to tell us.

[berkeley]

Read Galatians...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Last night I lay awake thinking about Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar. When Abraham and Sarah took things into their own hands to 'help God out'...we end up with Hagar's Ismael & Sarah's Isaac duking it out in the middle east for all of time. Was it all in the plan of God? Was it predestination or foreknowledge?

Many things in life I personally consider unfair and unjust...how much of it is our fault and how much of it is in God's plan?

Had God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in a timely way then Abraham and Sarah would not have tried to take matters into their own hands. Do you think that God predestines us to go through things or are we just a bunch of screw-ups?

Just some of the thoughts running around in my exhausted brain.
I'd be interested to know anyone else's thoughts on this matter.

Blessings, Rhoni

If it was in the plan of God it was there by foreknowledge, not because God wanted Abraham and Sarah to doubt and take matters into their own hand

[Sam]

Below is sermon by the late Nathaniel Urshan who died in 2002 at the age of 84. I've heard him preach in Cincinnati in the late nineteen fifties when he was pastor of Calvary Tabernacle which was a large church in Indianapolis, IN. From 1978 to 2002 he was the General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church. His father, Andrew Urshan, was Assyrian and was born in Persia in 1884 He came to the United States in 1902, and returned to Persia in 1914 where he survived the massacre of the Assyrians and Armenians by the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims. I heard Andrew Urshan preach in the nineteen fifties when I was in St. Paul, MN. Once I heard Nathaniel's uncle speak and he told about avoiding death in Israel/Palestine by some times passing as an Arab and some times as a Jew. They were quite a family of preachers and had first hand experience in the struggle between Arabs and Jews which is the theme of this message. I don't know the date of this message but the way it is worded I think it was a message that Bro. Urshan gave over the radio when he was speaker for the Harvestime broadcast of the United Pentecostal Church. The latest date he mentions is 1956 but it still seems appropriate for our day. I hope you enjoy it.

THE WORLD'S GREATEST FEUD
By: Nathaniel A. Urshan

The top news stories on radio, television, newspapers and magazines tell of the titanic struggle between the Arab nations and Israel. In an ever increasing crescendo, the Near East seems to be heading for a world conflict and Armageddon. Russia is building up its military forces on land, at sea, at air, boasting that she is there to protect the interest of the Arab countries. A number of world powers are supplying arms to either the Arabs or Israel and some to both.

But most people do not realize that this is the world's greatest family feud and that problem is 4,000 years old. It is the battle between the star of David and the crescent of Mohammed. The most dramatic family story in history is the story of Abraham, his two wives, Sarah and Hagar and finally, his two sons. His sons, Isaac and Ishmael, initiated the worlds longest and earliest family feuds, greater in intensity than the Hatfields and the McCoys.

FAMILY DIFFERENCES
This family struggle began in the tents of Abraham. God had promised Abraham and Sarah that He would give them a son who would bless the entire world. Abraham, known for his faith, faltered at God's promise and took an Egyptian servant girl named Hagar as a concubine. With Sarah's consent, permission, and also suggestion, Abram had a son born of Hagar whom he named Ishmael. If Sarah and Abram had believed the word God had spoken to them concerning an heir, there would not be this bloody story of the fighting brothers who are destroying each other this very moment. Sheer unbelief caused a slave girl who was an alien and a heathen to become the mother of Ishmael and wife of Abraham. It is truly amazing that a wrong committed thousands of years ago has such violent repercussions today.

The Arabs and Israelites have one father. It was the mother who made the worlds of difference. Not only was Hagar a foreigner and idolatrous in Abraham's house, but Genesis 21:21 states, "And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt." The records state Ishmael's mother chose an Egyptian as his wife. This forever links and ties the Egyptian and Abrahamic worlds together. Ishmael and his sons after him mostly settled in the north and west of the Arabian peninsula. His posterity forms the chief element of the Arab nations.

What a different world was created by Isaac who is called the Son of Promise. Isaac was born to Sarah and Abraham in the hundredth year of Abraham's life. Isaac was a miracle child and his offspring were to know miracles as no other nation in history. Through the watchful care of Abraham, Isaac married Rebekah, a Jehovah fearing woman of the family of Abraham. In Genesis 24:40, it declares, "He married Rebekah of my kindred, and of my father's house." In this way the two worlds began and from that time these estranged brothers have moved further and further apart.

to be continued

[Sam]

RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES

The Moslem religion is based on a belief in one God. They call his name Allah. Their Bible is the Koran which they read and recite daily. The Koran demands daily prayer, alms giving, and at least one pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca during the life of a Moslem. There are more then 300 million Moslems living today. The Moslem faith has done little to elevate and educate its adherents as anyone can see by studying its history in a number of lands. A strange religious contradiction is that the Arabs look to Abraham as their father but to Mohammed as their prophet.

On the other hand, Isaac and his son Jacob followed Abraham's religion. Their worship began with Abraham's teachings and continued to Moses from whom they received the law. Then to Judges, Kings, and Prophets of the Old Testament, each revealing more of God to the nation. Also, the Jews adhere to the Talmud, which is a collection of rabbinical writings explaining how to live as a believer in Jehovah. They accept the Old Testament as their basis of belief including its laws regarding religious observances, sanitary procedures, dietary rules and moral principles.

There is a tremendous resurgence of traditional Judaism in the world at this moment and the grand hope of building again a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. This would be the first time such a temple existed in the last 2,000 years since it was destroyed by the Romans. One visit to the wailing wall in Jerusalem today reveals the ardor and the zeal of modern day Jews crying out for expected Messiah to return.

PROPHETICAL DIFFERENCES
Never have there been differences between brothers, like the differences between these two, who until this day represent complete opposites. There are promises which God made to the Arabs. Genesis 16:9-12"And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." God said that Ishmael would live in the presence of his brethren, but that his hand would be against them. Certainly this is one of the greatest prophecies of the Bible which we can see fulfilled at this very moment.

On the other hand, Isaac received God's covenant made with Abraham. "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing." Genesis 12:1,2.

At the end of this dispensation these two brothers will disagree violently and will be on opposite political and religious sides. The political leader, called in the Bible, the Antichrist, will seek to bring peace between them. The Arab nations will agree with and fight with Russia when she comes against Jerusalem in the prophecy of Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39.

POSITION OF THE CHURCH
Both these brothers agree on one thing and that is the denial of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and the Saviour of the world. But it is most interesting that on the day of Pentecost when the church was born, that Jews and Arabs received the Holy Ghost and both were received into the church the same day. Acts 2:11: "Cretes and Abrabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." The revival of the day of Pentecost is also prophetic of the last day revival when God will hear Jew or Arab who calls upon His name.

The political position of the church between Arab and Jew is neutral. We do not want to see refugees of any kind in the world. We do not rejoice in human suffering among any people. We love all the nations of the world. However, Bible scholars who understand prophecy predicted for centuries that Israel would go back to her own land in the end time. Today it has come to pass. Because it offends or hurts some group or nation, we cannot read just the prophetical scriptures. It must come to pass.

Every time the Jews have returned to Jerusalem after a dispersion, some great event takes place. The Jews first took Jerusalem after returning from 400 years in Egypt. David was made King and Solomon his son built the first temple. Hundreds of years after they went into Babylonian exile and finally returned, the second temple was built. The second temple was the one Jesus Christ ministered in and went from to Calvary to shed His blood and to save the world for almost 2,000 years. Now, at the end of the Gentile dispensation, they have returned to Jerusalem. They will surely build another temple to welcome the King, their Messiah.

THE END OF THE FEUD
Christians know that the Lord Jesus is coming again soon. Psalm 102:16 declares: "When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory." The entire world knows that Zion is being built up. Prophetical students expect Jesus Christ to appear in glory. As the Semitic brothers clash on the holy mountains of Israel, let every person who wishes to be ready when the trumpet of God shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise, and we that remain and are ready shall go to meet the Lord in the air. Prepare for that great event; for that great event is not far hence.

Every indication in our day, every event in that Near Eastern country trends in the direction of the final and catastrophic battle that will bring bloodshed upon our earth. Signs that are appearing in many other instances around our world again agree with the prophecy of the scriptures.

As we appeal to you today we are urging you in the name of the Lord to pray for the peace at Jerusalem, for with that peace, there is peace in the earth. God bless you, my friend. The events of prophecy indicate the nearness of the coming of the Lord in this great family feud.

to be continued