Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by jfrog

verse 8 is a different speaker than verse 11 and on.

It dont look like it to me. Maybe theres 2 "alpha and omegas".?...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Sean

It dont look like it to me. Maybe theres 2 "alpha and omegas".?...

Do you know what alpha and omega means? I sure don't. Do you know if Alpha and Omega is a unique phrase or one that can apply to more than one person? I sure don't because I don't even know what an "Alpha and Omega" is.

So before you can say there is only 1 alpha and omega first you must know what the phrase means and then there must be some kind of uniqueness associated with it such that it can only apply to one person. I don't think you can show either and so basing a doctrine about who Jesus is off the phrase alpha and omega is more like grasping for straws. Especially when verse 8 clearly tells us who is speaking, the Lord. (You know God?)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Smart of you to leave off the rest of my post.

"For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

Still dealing with that? Several more pending.

Once again you do not explain my proposition. My proposition has been pending ever since I presented it as my response to the point of this entire thread.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Do you know what alpha and omega means? I sure don't. Do you know if Alpha and Omega is a unique phrase or one that can apply to more than one person? I sure don't because I don't even know what an "Alpha and Omega" is.

So before you can say there is only 1 alpha and omega first you must know what the phrase means and then there must be some kind of uniqueness associated with it such that it can only apply to one person. I don't think you can show either and so basing a doctrine about who Jesus is off the phrase alpha and omega is more like grasping for straws. Especially when verse 8 clearly tells us who is speaking, the Lord. (You know God?)

Pretty plainly, Alpha and Omega means beginning and end, or the everything!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Do you know what alpha and omega means? I sure don't. Do you know if Alpha and Omega is a unique phrase or one that can apply to more than one person? I sure don't because I don't even know what an "Alpha and Omega" is.

So before you can say there is only 1 alpha and omega first you must know what the phrase means and then there must be some kind of uniqueness associated with it such that it can only apply to one person. I don't think you can show either and so basing a doctrine about who Jesus is off the phrase alpha and omega is more like grasping for straws. Especially when verse 8 clearly tells us who is speaking, the Lord. (You know God?)

I think your argument ran out of gas. 2 Alpha and Omegas....cmon bro. ya hurt me in a bad kinda way...LOL

[Sean]

Even the trinitarians that invented the red letter edition knew better than that brother.

[shazeep]

[mfblume]

Thanks so much for an effort to address my issue! Wow. How long did that take for someone to do it?

Originally Posted by jfrog

God is the only almighty.

Exactly. The speaker in Revelation 1:8 is indicated as being the Lord. All throughout the Old Testament and even throughout much of the new testament the title "Lord" is mostly used in reference to God himself. If you do not believe that point I can find examples.

So, God himself declares to be the almighty in verse 1:8. There's no guess work about who is talking there, the scriptures plainly tell us, thus "saith the Lord".

Where does Jesus claim to be the Almighty I don't see it?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I did not lay it out plainly, though I thought I did. No problem.

Here is it is:

Rev 1:8-13 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; (13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

John wrote that the Lord said He was ALPHA AND OMEGA, the ALMIGHTY in verse 8.

THE SAME TITLE "ALPHA AND OMEGA" is used by one speaking to John in verse 11. When John turns to see who is speaking, he sees ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN.

In other words, if the Alpha and Omega is one called the Almighty, and the Alpha and Omega is the one called the son of man, then the son of man is the Almighty! And that involvement of humanity with the Almighty's identity demands we realize that the Almighty manifested in flesh as that son of man.

Otherwise, there is more than one Alpha and Omega!

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Sean

I think your argument ran out of gas. 2 Alpha and Omegas....cmon bro. ya hurt me in a bad kinda way...LOL

Where's your gas? We are back to Chapter 1 again?

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John, (that God GAVE to HIM?)

2 who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.

3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

4 John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne, (that's God)

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, (and from someone else - Jesus)

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. (clarified - Jesus has a God)

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty.' (that's the voice of God, through Jesus, signified through the Angel)

Where does this chapter say or even remotely imply that Jesus and God are the same?

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

11 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

So this is: The "Revelation of Jesus Christ, that God Gave to Him". Not "The Revelation of Jesus Christ from His Throne" or the Revelation of God Jesus Christ".

[Sean]

You need to see my explanation of the Godhead. it works just fine with the above passage. I can post it or you may go look at it.
Let me know if you want to see it.

Its under "oneness questions" on page 4 of the fellowship hall. (last post)