Remitted on the Cross or not?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DAII

Romans 5:10 says that we were enemies of God when we were enemies of God when through death we were reconciled and saved through his life: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.

Why was it expedient for Him to go away, Daniel? What benefit do we receive from his life? What did he tell us in John 16:7? "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Prax would be correct in saying, "I would say we are saved by both, but then again it depends on how one defines salvation. We are saved when we are forgiven AND made alive." and "Reconciliation is something God accomplished on the cross through Jesus Christ but is still something that needs to be appropriated by us, through faith."

Hence we have Peter saying, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Comforter)."

I read your posts and you put out a scripture or two but then you fail to encompass the whole of it.

[Praxeas]

Does anyone know what Segraves or Bernard would say on that verse and on being reconciled?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Does anyone know what Segraves or Bernard would say on that verse and on being reconciled?

John 16:7?

Bernard's Oneness of God:

page 69:

"... additional proof that Jesus is the Father incarnate.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His
own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21),
yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the
dead (Acts 2:24).
11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to
us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would

send the Comforter (John 14:26).

page 133

"... Jesus further explained this point in John 16:7, saying
that He had to go away or else the Comforter would not

come. Why? As long as Jesus was present with them
in the flesh He would not be present spiritually in
their hearts, but after He physically departed He would

send back His own Spirit to be with them.

page 196:

"Jesus went to heaven in His glorified body so He
could form a new relationship with His disciples, by
sending back His own Spirit as the Comforter. He said
to them, “It is expedient for you that I go away: for
if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you” (John
16:7). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Romans
8:9; II Corinthians 3:17-18). When we have the Spirit
in us, we have Christ in us (Ephesians 3:16-17)."

... or did you mean the passage in Romans? It's hard to tell if you don't hit that "Quote" button.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Brother David

... or did you mean the passage in Romans?

David,
If you have the info on Romans 5:10, could you post it? I don't have the book on hand. Thanks!

[Adino]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I'm trying to say this Adino:

...You admitted that in your theory there is one sin which was not remitted at the cross, the sin of unbelief. Now if the cross by itself lacked the power to remit even one sin why should we think the cross by itself has the power to remit any? (The answer is that we should not). Because of this, if the sin of unbelief was not remitted at the cross then your whole theory becomes very weak Adino... However I think the whole idea of what you are getting at still stands strong IF you say that the sin of unbelief was forgiven on the cross along with ALL other sins.

I would consider calling God a liar by ultimately rejecting the testimony He gave us of His Son a blasphemy against the Spirit. Wouldn't you?

Matthew 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Of course, the Cross "had the power to remit" this as well IF God had chosen to impute this particular transgression to Christ. Yet, only those sins imputed to Christ were forgiven on the Cross. God sovereignly chose not to impute the blasphemous rejection of His word.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Then how does one get forgiven of unbelief?

If you mean, "is the condition of our heart prior to believing forgiven?" I would say the spiritually dead heart must first hear the Gospel in order to ultimately accept or reject it. Upon hearing the Gospel, faith will ensue if the ground is right. If not, then unbelief will ultimately be imputed and condemnation will be the result. If one is ultimately in a state of unbelief before the throne, the unbelief does not get forgiven. He is forever condemned.

Also if forgiveness already happened how do you explain this verse

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I do not see 1John 1:9 as a verse dealing with a saved person confessing sins. One who is saved has the imputation of righteousness perpetually as long as he continues to believe. We "walk in the light" of the truth of the Gospel and we are perpetually justified before God as long as we keep this heart of faith.

I understand 1John was written to saved persons and to gnostics who had crept into the crowd. The light of the Gospel of Christ is the light John is trying to get gnostic heretics to walk in. The gnostics did not believe anything of the physical world could affect their spiritual status, because they believed all matter was evil. They had a skewed view of the depravity of man and because of this skewed view had rejected the idea that Jesus had risen physically. They simply did not believe. John is admonishing them to recognize their depravity, confess, and walk in the light of the Gospel truth of Christ (1John 3:23; 4:15; 5:1-21). Those who confessed, God is faithful and just to purge their heart of sin.

The commandment of God was to believe (1John 3:23).

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

David,
If you have the info on Romans 5:10, could you post it? I don't have the book on hand. Thanks!

From Bernard's Message of Romans, beginning at page 121:

"C. Permanent Blessings of Justification (5:1-11)

(1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have
peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ., (2)
through whom also we have access by faith into this
grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory
of God. (3) And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; (4) and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

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(5) Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of
God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit
who was given to us. (6) For when we were still without
strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For
scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for
a good man someone would even dare to die. (8) But God
demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we
were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then,
having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through Him. (10) For if when we were enemies
we were reconciled to God through the death of His
Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be
saved by His life. (11) And not only that, but we also
rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through
whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Chapter 5 concludes the discussion of justification
and prepares the reader for the subject of sanctification,
discussed in chapters 6-8. After explaining and proving
the doctrine of justification by faith in chapters 3-4,
Romans examines the blessings that accompany justification
(5:1-11). Chapter 5 emphasizes that justification by
faith brings lasting results. It is a complete solution for
man’s condition. In particular, faith produces three blessings:
peace, joy, and hope.

Verse 1. The first blessing of justification by faith is
peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace
here is not tranquillity of mind (although that is included)
but a relationship with God. Before justification we were
enemies of God and were subject to divine wrath.
Through the propitiatory death of Jesus Christ, however,
we now have a relationship of peace with God. The Greek
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verb here expresses present continuous action: “We are
having peace with God.” Another ancient reading is “Let
us have peace with God,” but on textual and logical
grounds most scholars accept the traditional reading.
Verse 2. Through Christ’s work and through our faith
in Him we also receive access to God’s grace. The Greek
literally says, “We have had access,” referring to the time
we first entered God’s grace at the new birth. We now
continue to stand in that grace. As a result, we rejoice in
the hope of God’s glory. This is the hope of future glory
to be revealed in us (Romans 8:18).

The same Greek verb kauchaomai appears in verses
2, 3, and 11, and it means “to exult or to boast.” For stylistic
reasons the KJV translated it variously in this passage
as “to rejoice, to glory, and to joy.” Chapter 5 actually
lists three things in which we can boast, exult or
rejoice: (1) in the hope of God’s glory, (2) in tribulation,
and (3) in God Himself.

Verse 3. The second object of our joy is tribulation or
affliction. Not only can we exult in the hope of future
glory, we can exult in present tribulation. The Early
Church rejoiced in persecution (Acts 5:41) and in trials
(James 1:2). To them tribulation was a sign that accompanied
entrance into God’s kingdom (Acts 14:22) and endurance
in tribulation was evidence of their ultimate
reward (II Thessalonians 1:4-5). In other words, sufferings
do not destroy our hope but rather confirm our hope.
How is this so? How can we rejoice in present affliction?
This is explained in a logical sequence of four steps:
(1) Tribulation produces perseverance (endurance). James
1:3 likewise says, “The testing of your faith produces patience.”
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[pelathais]

Verse 4.

(2) Perseverance produces character. The
Greek word here means proof; approval; a sense of approvedness;
a tried, mature character. (3) A tried character
produces hope—hope of future reward and future
glory.

Verse 5.

(4) The hope produced in this manner will
never be disappointed because it rests upon God’s love.
With this last step, it is shown that present tribulation will
lead certainly to future glory. Thus, we can rejoice in our
present tribulation, seeing it as a confirmation of future
glory. Not only can we rejoice in spite of tribulation, but
we can rejoice because of present tribulation, for it sets
in motion a process that, if we let it, will inevitably lead to
future glory.
The love of God, upon which this whole process rests,
is poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit
of God freely given to us. In this way the present work of
the Spirit in our lives is a pledge of our future inheritance
(Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:13-14).

Verse 6

next proves that these blessings of justification
are lasting and that we can have confidence in our
future salvation. The passage shows that God’s love is the
foundation of these blessings. By analyzing the kind of
love God has for us, it shows why we can have total confidence
in the permanence of our salvation.
What kind of love does God have for us? This love
motivated Christ to die on our behalf while we were weak
and unable to help ourselves. Christ’s death came at God’s
appointed time or just at the right time for us. Christ died
for us while we were ungodly. (This explains how God can
justify the ungodly as stated in Romans 4:5.)

Verse 7.

In human experience very rarely will some-

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one die for a righteous man. If someone does die for a
good man, it is a very daring act, stretching the limits of
human nature. By implication, it is unthinkable for someone
to die deliberately on behalf of an evil man.

Verse 8.

Yet that is exactly what Christ did for us.
While we were still sinners, Christ died on our behalf.
This act commends, confirms, manifests, shows, proves,
and establishes God’s love for us. The Greek word order
places emphasis on the possessive pronoun. God demonstrates
His own love, toward us.
This only makes sense if we understand the oneness
of the Godhead. How does Christ’s death show God’s
love, emphatically God’s own love, if Christ and God be
two separate persons? Did God love the world so much
that He sent someone else to suffer for the world? No.
God loved the world so much that He manifested
Himself in flesh as the Son of God and sacrificed that
human life for us. God loved us so much that He gave of
Himself. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to
Himself” (II Corinthians 5:19). Our Father and Creator
became our Savior and Redeemer (Deuteronomy 32:6;
Isaiah 63:16; Malachi 2:10; Colossians 1:14-22).

Verse 9

underscores the permanence of the blessings
of justification by the use of “much more,” which appears
also in verses 10, 15, 17, and 20. If Christ died for us
while we were ungodly sinners, how much more will He
do for us now that we belong to Him? If he counted us
righteous when we were unrighteous, He will certainly
save us now that we are His.
The verse describes our justification as a past occurrence,
referring to our new birth experience. This came
by (literally, “in”) the blood of Jesus. As our comments on

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Romans 3:25 have suggested, the blood of Jesus represents
His life given up in death. According to Romans
4:25, His death alone would be ineffective without His
resurrection. Therefore, the saving blood of Christ means
His death, burial, and resurrection for our salvation. We
are not justified by a mystical daubing of Christ’s physical
blood, but by our identification with His death, burial,
and resurrection through the obedience of faith.
While justification is a past event for us, salvation in
the complete sense is still future. Through Christ we shall
be saved from God’s future wrath upon sinners at the
judgment. To be saved literally means to be kept or preserved.

Verse 10.

This verse recapitulates the thought of
verses 6-9. While we were God’s enemies God reconciled
us to Him by the death of His Son. To be reconciled
means restored to favor, restored to a relationship. This
is another way of looking at Christ’s death. From God’s
viewpoint Christ’s death is a propitiation; from man’s
viewpoint it is a reconciliation. God is propitiated; man
is reconciled.
If Christ’s death served to reconcile us, how much
more will His life now preserve us? By comparing verses
6-9 with verse 10, we see the following parallel expressions:
ungodly/sinners and enemies, justification and reconciliation,
Christ’s blood and Christ’s death.
The key point is this: God has already done the hard
part in our salvation, so we can be assured that He will
do everything else necessary to maintain our salvation
until the end. Humanly speaking, the hard part was the
death of the man Christ, especially when that death was
for people who did not deserve it or even appreciate it.

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[pelathais]

Theologically, the hard part was counting the unrighteous
as righteous and restoring enemies to fellowship. The
easy part is keeping us in fellowship now that we are His
friends. The easy part is giving us power to stay saved
now that we are, and want to remain, righteous.
God takes the active part in reconciliation. We are
passive recipients. God reconciles us to Him; we are
reconciled to Him. We cannot bring about reconciliation
by our good works; it only comes by the death of Christ.
God provides it; we receive it. Of course, we must accept
His death and apply it to our lives by obedient faith.
Again, we see the oneness of God in Christ. How
could God reconcile us by the death of Christ if God and
Christ be separate persons? Since God (the sum total of
the Deity) was incarnate in Christ, God was indeed reconciling
us to Himself when the man Christ died (II Corinthians
5:19; Colossians 2:9-10).
We are saved by His life, literally “in His life.” What
keeps and preserves us in our relationship with God is the
life of Christ in us, the power of His resurrection life in
us. The Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in
us and imparts sanctifying power to us (Acts 1:8; Romans
8:3-4, 11).
Salvation is not just a one-time past experience; it is
also present and future. The believer is saved by present
and future participation in Christ’s life. If the believer
cuts himself off from Christ’s life, he loses his present salvation
and his hope of future salvation. If he remains in
Christ’s life, he has assurance of future salvation.
In short, we are reconciled by Christ’s death, but
saved by His life. It is not enough to look back at Christ’s
death

for us; we must also have His resurrection life in

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us. Justification and reconciliation both occur when we
identify with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection at
the time of our new birth. Salvation, however, is more
than a one-time event; it is a life-long process consisting
of progressive sanctification until ultimate glorification.
Justification and reconciliation are grounded in Christ’s
blood or death, but sanctification is grounded in His life
(His Spirit living in us). Not only does Christ justify and
reconcile us, He also saves (preserves) us. As long as we
stay in Christ and Christ lives in us, we have assurance of
eternal salvation. We can have confidence that the blessings
of justification are permanent.

Verse 11.

Not only do we have confidence in our
salvation, rejoicing in the hope of future glory and in the
midst of present tribulations, we can also rejoice in God
Himself. We rejoice in God through Jesus Christ because
Christ is our only access to God. God’s grace, the
demonstration of His love, justification, and reconciliation
come to us only through His manifestation in the
flesh as Jesus.
We rejoice in God through Christ because from God
through Christ we receive “the reconciliation.” The KJV

says we receive “the atonement,” which is the only time it
uses that word in the New Testament. The Greek word

katallage

,

used in verb form in verse 10 and in noun form
in verse 11, does not bear the same meaning as the modern
English word atonement, however. The English verb

atone

in the Old Testament is the translation of a Hebrew
word meaning “to cover, expiate, forgive, pardon.” The
Greek word in verse 11 means “reconciliation or restoration
to favor,” and this meaning fits the context. This was
the original connotation of the English word “at-one-ment.”

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[pelathais]

Segraves' book on Romans is organized thematically rather than in a straight commentary fashion as Bernards so a one-to-one comparision of the two is a bit difficult to present.

Some passages where Segraves discusses Romans 5:10:

When compared with first-century Jewish theology,
the startling news about this Christian view was the declaration
that the ungodly are justified in Christ: “But to him
that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans
4:5, KJV). In further contrast to the Jewish idea, the New
Testament asserts that this justification has nothing to do
with the works of the law; it is by faith alone: “Knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by
the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus
Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the
law shall no flesh be justified. . . . But that no man is justified
by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The
just shall live by faith” (Galatians 2:16; 3:11, KJV).
In the interest of making this central doctrine relevant
to people on the eve of the twenty-first century, and since
righteousness/justification is primarily relational, it has
been suggested that a more helpful translation than “justified”
would be “right with God.”

12 This restoration to fellowship
with God, destroyed in the Garden of Eden, is
made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus
Christ:

“Being justified freely by his grace through the
redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set
forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to
declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I
say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be
just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus”
(Romans 3:24-26, KJV).

14

Themes from a Letter to Rome

“

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we
believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the
dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was
raised again for our justification” (Romans 4:24-25,
KJV).
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him” (Romans

5:9, KJV).
15

Jesus’ Blood and Justification

“Much more then, having now been justified by His
blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him”
(Romans 5:9). The justification already granted on the
basis of Christ’s blood provides full assurance that believers
will also be saved from wrath through Jesus. God
would not justify a person, then abandon him. The phrase
“much more then” emphasizes the absolute certainty of
the salvation from wrath that all who are justified will
experience. (See I Thessalonians 5:9.)
The wrath in view here is the judicial wrath of God
that He will pronounce upon all unbelievers at the final
judgment. But the implication is that those who are justified
will be spared any expression of the wrath of God.
This would include the divine wrath visited upon the
world during the Great Tribulation. The hope of believers
should strengthen and mature as they contemplate the

inseparable bond between justification and salvation.
38

The Result of Justification by Faith

The right standing with God we enjoy by our faith in
Jesus Christ results in peace with God: “Therefore, having
been justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). The separation
from fellowship with God that results from our sins is
replaced by His acceptance of us. The enmity between
God and humanity is removed. Because of the death of

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Faith

Jesus, there is no reason for any person to remain separated
from God. As far as God is concerned, every barrier
has been removed, because the blood of Jesus dealt conclusively
with the sin problem.
In that sense, sin is no longer a problem. The question
now is not,

What will you do about your sins, but What
will you do with Jesus? From God’s perspective, the
world is reconciled to Him: “That is, that God was in
Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing
their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the
word of reconciliation. Therefore we are ambassadors for
Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we
implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God”
(II Corinthians 5:19-20). Through Christ, God has been
reconciled to the world. All that remains is for the world
to be reconciled to Him.
The only people who will suffer eternal condemnation
are those who do not avail themselves of the provisions
made in the blood of Jesus. By their rejection of Him, they
will cause their sins to be imputed, or counted, to their
record. But those who by faith receive the benefits of the
Atonement are justified. Their sins are not imputed to
them. Since there are no sins on their record, they enjoy

peace with God.
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