The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Michael The Disciple]

TD

Saying Paul worked and therefore preachers today should work doesn't make sense to me.

Same argument Evangelicals make about speaking in tongues. Just because the early Church spoke in tongues doesn't mean we should.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Why do we act like having a full-time job means a man can't or shouldn't be a full-time minister? Remember the unprofitable servants Jesus spoke of in Luke 17:10? Worked all day in the field then came back to the Master's house, and continued to serve at table preparing and serving food until the Master relieved them of their responsibilities for the day?

And what of this:

1 Thessalonians 2:9,

For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

Paul and his team worked during the day to provide himself and his crew their funds, then spent the evenings preaching the Gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:8,

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

Here again, travailing, that is, working very hard, night and day, so the Thessalonians wouldn't have to financially support Paul and his team.

There was never a time in the traditional, institutional church model where I wasn't working 40-50 hours a week and ministering full-time. While at university I was taking full-time course credits (like working a 40 hour/week job), working 30 hours a week, and ministering full-time planting then leading and growing a church.

It's called taking up your cross. All these men who want to go full-time ministry, or already have, and intend to quit their jobs and expect to be financially renumerated by the church: a question I have for all of them:

Paul laboured abundantly more than you all and did more for the Kingdom of God than you all, and suffered more than you all, and he worked full-time in secular and sacred work, no vacations, no insurance plans, no vehicle stipends, no mortgage payments on a parish paid in full, and did it all his life until he was imprisoned, and you want to quit your job and have everything Paul and his team never had and you think you'll be able to do more for the Kingdom of God if you just go full-time without secular employment?

In weight-lifting, you never get stronger if you don't add more weight. You want to do more for God and be used to an even greater degree than before. Add more weight. Take on as much burden and responsibility as you possibly can. God's glory is compared to weight. If you want to see a greater display of God's glory, you have to let Him add the weight. Easy-road ministry never accomplishes God's will.

Good teaching VS

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thanks

I was taught probably like everyone here,

Genesis 28:20-22
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: [22] And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

We can argue on thats not what that means. Yet, thats what I was taught and I believed it. I supported my Pastor for 17+ years through 10% tithe and 5% offering, every week, month, and year. Now, the tithe was a covenant between God and myself, it wasnt between the Pastor and myself. Jacobs vow to God wasnt to another man but to God! So I gave faithfully to the work of God, not to the man, and he in return took what he received and gave 10% back to the church.

What I preach and teach is different than what I was taught. I dont preach 10% tithe, and I dont preach offering. I say give unto the Lord, and whats put in the plate is whats in the plate. I wasn’t called of man, I was called of God. God will supply my need. This may be different than what you would believe, but you asked. I’m starting a work for God, new work from the ground up, so I work as God opens the door. If there is no work then i wait on God

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

I was blessed to have a Pastor up here teach me about Gods provision. What he taught me is lost in Pentecost! The Holy Ghost spoke to me a year ago and told me “I’m going to take care of you”, and he has. I have probably worked maybe 70 hours from 2019 up till now. I dont live a lavish lifestyle, I can survive on very little. I dont need new vehicles, i dont need a big house, i need Jesus. I have 5 children and a wife, and we live in a single wide trailer in a trailer park. God has been good to us. I dont want to be a burden on the church, so that means to me I dont live in a way that will be!

I believe every minister should be full time, and if the church isn’t there, then work very little to sustain your monthly needs and work in the spirit. I am a servant to the souls in my town, at the drop of a hat I can be where the need is. I dont have to go to a boss to ask permission.

My mentor in a church not too far from me, had several families leave, they were big supporters of the church. A spirit of fear started working against him, that he might now have to go and get a job. I known him for 20+ years he would’ve went and did what he had to do, but God was going to use what others intented for evil, for good. One evening service a man came into the church, the Spirit told the Pastor, he is a raven, he is not here to be saved. The Pastor didnt know what to make of that. After service, the man came up to the Pastor and handed him a big wad of cash, the Pastor said “ill make sure it goes to the church”, the man looked at him and said “thats for you”, he walked out and hasn’t been there since.

1 Kings 17:4
And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.

I believe in ravens, God has supplied my need through them. I believe in Gods provision, and I believe living in the spirit to where God supplies. So to answer you’re question again, I dont preach a 10% tithe or hell, but I don’t condemn those that do preach tithe (not the hell part).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

If people want to give 10 percent, why would it necessarily go to the pastor?

Brother Nicodemus, could you be so kind as to post a summary of the tithe doctrine that you believe and teach? And why you believe it? If it is based on scripture? Or Brother ________taught it and you believed it. I would really be interested. I’m not being facetious.

Thank you.

The standard answer is that after tithe is given to the Pastor then you are to give offerings where you will.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

TD



Same argument Evangelicals make about speaking in tongues. Just because the early Church spoke in tongues doesn't mean we should.

What about,

Matthew 4:19-20
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. [20] And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Is there a scripture thats stats Peter and the rest went back to fishing for work again? Just because Paul did as an Apostle doesn’t mean every preacher should be a full time worker outside the spirit.

[TakingDominion]

Regarding traveling evangelists or itinerant preachers as you called them. Unfortunately, in today's world it is impossible do what they relying soley on donations of food and clothing. My Duramax doesn't run on french fry grease. Although, I wish it did.

[TakingDominion]

Also you left out all these verses about paying the preacher...

1 Timothy 5:17-18 ESV /
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

Galatians 6:6 ESV /
One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

1 Corinthians 9:14 ESV /
In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:9-14 ESV
For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? ...

Acts 20:33-35 ESV /
I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

2 Thessalonians 3:7-10 ESV
For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

Luke 10:7 ESV /
And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 ESV /
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

Romans 4:4 ESV /
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

[TakingDominion]

You say the tithe should be going to help the poor or buy school supplies for kids.. I'm not against any of that, but tell me, where in scripture does it indicate that is what we should be doing with the tithe?

It's funny that you want to say there's no scripture for the tithe to go to the pastor, but then when asked what should be done with the tithe, you give an entirely unscriptural answer. I have one for you..

Numbers 18:24 ESV /
For the tithe of the people of Israel, which they present as a contribution to the Lord, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance. Therefore I have said of them that they shall have no inheritance among the people of Israel.”

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

Regarding traveling evangelists or itinerant preachers as you called them. Unfortunately, in today's world it is impossible do what they relying soley on donations of food and clothing. My Duramax doesn't run on french fry grease. Although, I wish it did.

I had a dully 24V Cummings, I wish ran on French fry grease.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It is what Paul lived and advocated and taught the elders in Ephesus to do.




Spend it elsewhere, like helping the poor and needy, the homeless, local kids who can't afford school supplies, paying someone's rent, or helping someone acquire a vehicle. Start in the church, in the household of God, then move on from there.



Absolutely. Jesus contrasted Himself as the Good Shepherd from hirelings in John 10. Hirelings are wage earners. Jesus made it clear that those who earn a wage while looking after the Shepherd's sheep will run when the wolves come. Ever hear the saying "keeping the wolves at bay"? It's related to finances. What happens to many pastors who are struggling financially or the church is struggling financially? How many want to, or at least think about bailing out of their calling? How many start hammering the church for $$$?

It's a hireling mentality.

Simon Peter said elders should not take upon themselves the role of overseer by constraint or for filthy lucre's sake (1 Peter 5:2). What is filthy lucre? Ill-gotten gains received unethically or improperly, from either dishonest, of dishonorable sources. One form of this is taking a regular wage from the church.

Paul made it clear what he thought of when he thought of the idea of being paid to preach. He called it peddling God's Word (2 Corinthians 2:7). He refused to be financially renumerated for his ministry. So, I think you can connect the dots and see that shepherding God's sheep, by definition has to be a wage-free labor of love, or else it's filthy lucre/peddling the Word of God.

Add to that his instruction to Timothy to be content with offerings of food and clothing makes it pretty clear Paul didn't want his team receiving money as gifts.

Paul only received financial assistance after he was placed under house arrest in Rome, and could not work, because of his chain, and couldn't pay for his rent. So, Epaphroditus worked himself near to death to keep Paul in that rented house and out of a Roman jail, and when the Philippians heard about it, they were sorry and decided to send Paul a monetary offering. But at the end of the letter, Paul makes it clear it wasn't the money he was after, he knew how to abound and how to be abased, and could, therefore, withstand a dungeon if that is what it was going to take for God's glory to be revealed. So, Paul knew he could do all things through Christ which strengthened him. Rather, then, he appreciated the financial donation because it was going to be blessed by God on their behalf for their own sakes. When the Philippians heard what had happened to Paul, they abandoned him and his ministry. The letter is very clear that Paul took pains to convince them that what had happened to him was the will of God, even letting them know he was winning souls among Caesar's household. It's why the letter was written not just to the saints, but more specifically to the bishops and deacons, that is, the overseers who make the crucial decisions and the deacons who handle the church's finances and giving.

We see, then, that Epaphroditus was the key when he came to Philippi and told them what was going on. His visit changed their minds, particularly the minds of the bishops and deacons, who abandoned their former assistance to their founding apostle.

So, if you re-read Philippians (without stopping for chapter breaks and in paragraph form without verses helps here) again in this light, and you will see why the only reason Paul took money was for what I just wrote above. It's obvious once you know to look for these things.



He can't do that working a secular job? A minister of the Gospel is a minister 100% of the time, everywhere he goes, not just in a church setting. Most of the successful soul-winners I know have the most success through their secular work. What a great way to focus on teaching, preaching, and building the church, by having a captive audience to win to the Lord.

While at university, I taught my boss a Bible study on the Gospel using her computer workstation during a shift using biblegateway.com and she came to church that night and was baptized and received the Holy Spirit.

Currently, I work for Walmart and have had so many opportunities to pray for and be a blessing and witness. I baptized a coworker in the name of the Lord Jesus last October who had received the Holy Spirit back as a teen in the 70's with the Jesus People, have had a college student who attended my alma mater receive a revelation of Acts 2:38 because of what I've been teaching, been used by God to work a miracle of healing for a backslider I used to teach in Sunday school when she was a kid, who is facing a severely complicated pregnancy. The list goes on to the glory of God. As far as work goes, as far as I am concerned, I tend as a shepherd the lost sheep who work for and/or shop at, my store. And God blesses. I took a new position a year ago, only to find out then that I became the boss of someone who received the Holy Spirit at my former church who told me my brother baptized in her in the name of Jesus (but she has fallen away since then). The connections and possibilities are endless, because of my secular work, which I treat as SACRED.



An itinerant prophet is not a pastor, right? The needs are different. The travelling preacher can receive donations of assistance, like food and clothing as needed, and can be sent on his way to the next place through the help of a local church, as indicated by the Holy Scriptures.

Not as a wage, but as basic coverage and reimbursement of expenses.



Paul said that, as an APOSTLE men like him and Barnabas had the right, if they elected to make use of it, to forebear working for the sake of prayer and the Word (1 Corinthians 9:1-6). He never indicated that anyone other than an apostle had that right. So, and unless someone is an apostle, and that's verified Biblically, no one has the right to forebear working.

But even if a person is an apostle, and has the right to forebear, we still must consider Paul's example as the best path to follow, for, as he himself wrote, that the Gospel be not hindered. Paul had exceptional wisdom and insight from the Lord. He tried to make it plain what it meant to be an apostle. It is the most difficult ministry to live out, especially as traveling church planters (for example, see 1 Corinthians 4). He didn't want people coveting the role due to the perks.



Methods of travel, footwear, and dietary choices are nowhere near in the same category as understanding and applying the correct principles of the Holy Scriptures regarding financial remuneration for the ministry.

And yet, Paul, traveling by foot, or possibly by animal, and by ship, in his rugged sandals and eating mashed chickpeas and sesame seeds and olive oil did more than most are doing with vehicles, smartphones, internet, vast ministerial networks and fellowships and bank accounts at their disposal. So, go figure out how that works.

Thank you. Seriously...with all the arguing and silliness posts like THIS are the reason I keep coming back.


Isnt it crazy how the plain simple explanation of scriptural truths in CONTEXT have become so edgy and "out of the box?"