Remitted on the Cross or not? - Page 14

RevDWW · #**131** 01-24-2010, 08:27 AM

If I have money in the bank to pay a certain bill, but never sign the check for a bill, is that bill remitted?

jfrog · #**132** 01-24-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

If I have money in the bank to pay a certain bill, but never sign the check for a bill, is that bill remitted?

Adino isn't saying the money is in the bank. He isn't saying Jesus put the money in our bank for us to withdraw and pay the bill later. He is saying Jesus already payed our bill for us.

jfrog · #**133** 01-24-2010, 10:25 AM

I think the best question for Adino and the one I still don't see answered is:

If we were all forgiven of ALL our sins on the cross then are we righteous or unrighteous?

If we still have some sin (unbelief) how can you call us righteous in God's eyes? (I mean you already equated unbelief to calling God a liar...)

If we are still unrighteous in God's eyes (by the sin of unbelief) then doesn't that mean the cross wasn't enough to bring about forgiveness for ALL our sins? (This frees us to say that since forgiveness of some of our sins weren't taken care of at the cross then perhaps forgiveness of ALL our sins takes place sometime after the cross as well...)

jfrog · #**134** 01-24-2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think the best question for Adino and the one I still don't see answered is:

If we were all forgiven of ALL our sins on the cross then are we righteous or unrighteous?

If we still have some sin (unbelief) how can you call us righteous in God's eyes? (I mean you already equated unbelief to calling God a liar...)

If we are still unrighteous in God's eyes (by the sin of unbelief) then doesn't that mean the cross wasn't enough to bring about forgiveness for ALL our sins? (This frees us to say that since forgiveness of some of our sins weren't taken care of at the cross then perhaps forgiveness of ALL our sins takes place sometime after the cross as well...)

I think the best response to this would be:

Having ALL our sins forgiven does not make us righteous. So we are still unrighteous but not because ALL our sins aren't forgiven (even unbelief). We are still unrighteous because we have not yet passed from death into life. So, we must be born again to become righteous. And we are only born again after following the "plan of salvation" (whatever that may entail, whether 1 step, 2 step, or 3 step...).

So saying the cross took care of ALL our sins actually doesn't have any implications on what steps we must take to be born again. (Which I believe is what Adino has been using that statement for...). However, within this framework we cannot say that baptism is when our sins are actually forgiven or remitted because this framework declares that they were all remitted on the cross. If this framework can be/is adopted then quite a bit is taken away from the argument that baptism is essential because it leaves us with no good explanation for why baptism would actually be important for being born again.

At least that's the best response I can imagine for my question...

Adino · #**135** 01-24-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think the best response to this would be:

Having ALL our sins forgiven does not make us righteous. So we are still unrighteous but not because ALL our sins aren't forgiven (even unbelief). We are still unrighteous because we have not yet passed from death into life. So, we must be born again to become righteous. And we are only born again after following the "plan of salvation" (whatever that may entail, whether 1 step, 2 step, or 3 step...).

So saying the cross took care of ALL our sins actually doesn't have any implications on what steps we must take to be born again. (Which I believe is what Adino has been using that statement for...). However, within this framework we cannot say that baptism is when our sins are actually forgiven or remitted because this framework declares that they were all remitted on the cross. If this framework can be/is adopted then quite a bit is taken away from the argument that baptism is essential because it leaves us with no good explanation for why baptism would actually be important for being born again.

At least that's the best response I can imagine for my question...

jfrog, I have a sec....

ALL sins imputed to Christ were remitted on the Cross. A question to be asked is whether or not the sin of rejecting the testimony God gave of his Son was imputed to Christ. I would say, no. Rejecting Christ in unbelief is a sin unto death. It is the sin which results in man's spirit remaining spiritually dead.

Justification unto life comes only to those who believe. It is not enough to have had our sins remitted on the Cross. We remain unrighteous by nature. We need to be considered righteous by God and the only way this is possible is to have the acceptable righteousness of Christ reckoned to us. This imputation of Christ's righteousness comes when we believe.

You rightly said we are not 'made' righteous, meaning we are not 'actually' righteous, just like Christ was not 'actually' a sinner, but only reckoned as one by God. We are only considered righteous when God reckons Christ's righteousness to our account. Having been freed from sin (by its transference to Christ on Calvary) and declared righteous (via imputation when we believe) we are quickened/resurrected as was Christ. He gives us his resurrected life. We are born of God, created in Christ unto good works.

Christ gave his life for us, to give his life to us, in order to live his life through us.

Yes, baptism plays no part in the historic remission of the Cross.

Adino · #**136** 01-24-2010, 12:21 PM

God bless, you all .... enjoy the new year!

jfrog · #**137** 01-24-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

jfrog, I have a sec....

ALL sins imputed to Christ were remitted on the Cross. A question to be asked is whether or not the sin of rejecting the testimony God gave of his Son was imputed to Christ. I would say, no. Rejecting Christ in unbelief is a sin unto death. It is the sin which results in man's spirit remaining spiritually dead.

Justification unto life comes only to those who believe. It is not enough to have had our sins remitted on the Cross. We remain unrighteous by nature. We need to be considered righteous by God and the only way this is possible is to have the acceptable righteousness of Christ reckoned to us. This imputation of Christ's righteousness comes when we believe.

You rightly said we are not 'made' righteous, meaning we are not 'actually' righteous, just like Christ was not 'actually' a sinner, but only reckoned as one by God. We are only considered righteous when God reckons Christ's righteousness to our account. Having been freed from sin (by its transference to Christ on Calvary) and declared righteous (via imputation when we believe) we are quickened/resurrected as was Christ. He gives us his resurrected life. We are born of God, created in Christ unto good works.

Christ gave his life for us, to give his life to us, in order to live his life through us.

Yes, baptism plays no part in the historic remission of the Cross.

I'm trying to say this Adino:

...You admitted that in your theory there is one sin which was not remitted at the cross, the sin of unbelief. Now if the cross by itself lacked the power to remit even one sin why should we think the cross by itself has the power to remit any? (The answer is that we should not). Because of this, if the sin of unbelief was not remitted at the cross then your whole theory becomes very weak Adino... However I think the whole idea of what you are getting at still stands strong IF you say that the sin of unbelief was forgiven on the cross along with ALL other sins.

Praxeas · #**138** 01-24-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

jfrog, I have a sec....

ALL sins imputed to Christ were remitted on the Cross. A question to be asked is whether or not the sin of rejecting the testimony God gave of his Son was imputed to Christ. I would say, no. Rejecting Christ in unbelief is a sin unto death. It is the sin which results in man's spirit remaining spiritually dead.

Justification unto life comes only to those who believe. It is not enough to have had our sins remitted on the Cross. We remain unrighteous by nature. We need to be considered righteous by God and the only way this is possible is to have the acceptable righteousness of Christ reckoned to us. This imputation of Christ's righteousness comes when we believe.

You rightly said we are not 'made' righteous, meaning we are not 'actually' righteous, just like Christ was not 'actually' a sinner, but only reckoned as one by God. We are only considered righteous when God reckons Christ's righteousness to our account. Having been freed from sin (by its transference to Christ on Calvary) and declared righteous (via imputation when we believe) we are quickened/resurrected as was Christ. He gives us his resurrected life. We are born of God, created in Christ unto good works.

Christ gave his life for us, to give his life to us, in order to live his life through us.

Yes, baptism plays no part in the historic remission of the Cross.

Then how does one get forgiven of unbelief?

Also if forgiveness already happened how do you explain this verse

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

pelathais · #**139** 01-24-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

If I have money in the bank to pay a certain bill, but never sign the check for a bill, is that bill remitted?

Jesus paid the debt for our sins. Are you saying he's just messing with us by refusing to "sign?"

My confidence in the Savior is greater than that. He paid the debt in full at Calvary.

DAII · #**140** 01-24-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What is the difference? How can one be justified and not forgiven...ie your account is still full of sin.

I would say we are saved by both, but then again it depends on how one defines salvation. We are saved when we are forgiven AND made alive.

Reconciliation is something God accomplished on the cross through Jesus Christ but is still something that needs to be appropriated by us, through faith. He did the work, we accept it

2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thus we are not already reconciled. He made the way available

Romans 5:10 says that we were enemies of God when we were enemies of God when through death we were reconciled and saved through his life: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.