How Many of HIS Creation will He Lose to "HELL"?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro, I don't start with that conclusion, I start with the scriptural support that Jesus' one act of righteousness reconciles the same folks that Adam's sin condemned. My post #1226 lays out the basics of this premise, I will flesh out what you are asking in the next day or two. We have gone over some of this before, but maybe more discussion can shed more understanding.

CJ, I'm looking forward how the Universalist Salvation group can be the same word used for an eternal God means something different when applied to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. CJ, that would be a simple thing, but then take scripture that use the word "all" and make a doctrine out of it.

I will wait for your FLESHING OUT of the teaching you believe. I would personally like you to pin down how the wicked are saved without trust in Christ and His shed blood. How haters of Christ are saved WITHOUT repentance, and how does the word eternal take on a different meaning when used in context with the word punishment and the word God?


I want to thank you for your time in this thread.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ, I'm looking forward how the Universalist Salvation group can be the same word used for an eternal God means something different when applied to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. CJ, that would be a simple thing, but then take scripture that use the word "all" and make a doctrine out of it.

I will wait for your FLESHING OUT of the teaching you believe. I would personally like you to pin down how the wicked are saved without trust in Christ and His shed blood. How haters of Christ are saved WITHOUT repentance, and how does the word eternal take on a different meaning when used in context with the word punishment and the word God?


I want to thank you for your time in this thread.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

Bro. Benincasa,
As we both know Matt. 25:46 is the proof text of endless punishment:

"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, and the righteous into life eternal."

If we review the context it sheds doubt on this being endless punishment, since the recipients only stated failure is not considering the poor.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we recognize that God's punishments are remedial, all of God's punishments are of our Heavenly Father, therefore must be adapted to the improvement of His children. Hebrews 12:5-11 "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: for whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth ever son whom He receiveth." And then John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...."

Now we could at this point go into the meaning of the words translated "everlasting and eternal" however we both know there are numerous examples throughout scripture where these words are clearly not "endless" in meaning. Of course you may say: "Then eternal life is not endless, for the same Greek adjective defines the life and the punishment". This does not follow however, for the Greek work is used in different senses in the same sentence; as in Hab. 3:6. "And the everlasting mountains were scattered, His ways are everlasting." If the mountains are scattered how can they be everlasting? Of course the reference to God certainly is everlasting. The "aionion" mountains are destroyed, therefore the words "everlasting and eternal" can denote limited and unlimited duration in the same passage, the difference to be determined by the subjected treated.

For clarity let's start at the beginning; at creation, when all things were made by God. The scripture is clear, He began His work knowing full well about the fall of man and what was to come. This is very important to embrace. He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13.8)

He, who created all things, will "reconcile to Himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross" (Col. 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He "spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets long age" (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the "heir of ALL things" (Heb. 1:2) and in God's Son "shall ALL the nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).

Then I would add my signature line to this post:

[Praxeas]

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. [B]The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil.[/B] The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Prax,
This is hyperbolic language, to my knowledge the devil does not have any humans that he created. What does he sow? Discord, wickedness and evil! And that is what will be burned up (not humans). All we have to do is logically consider these verses, it is not literal. The verses are more than likely speaking of the end of the old covenant and the destruction to the Jewish culture, religion system and the Jewish state. The the righteous will shine in the new covenant, which is the KINGDOM of GOD.

God's presence was enjoyed by the Jews in Judea, and in their temple service. To be cast out of God's presence, is to be banished from Judea into captivity, and from all the privileges which the Jews enjoyed in their land, and temple worship. This was the destruction of their world, image the destruction of America and the world as we know it.

II Kings 8:24: 'And the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast them from His presence as yet' He says "as yet", then in the following passage we find that he did: II Kings 24:20, 'For through the anger of the Lord it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until He had cast them out from His presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon' this destruction was for only seventy years. They were later brought back into their lands.

The Jews today remain in "aionion" destruction and are cast out from the presence of the Lord, and they have been wailing with gnashing of their teeth in incredible oppression since 70 A.D. (the close of the age), yet all Israel will eventually be saved.

The verses are easily answered by allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Prax,
This is hyperbolic language, to my knowledge the devil does not have any humans that he created.

Being sons of the devil does not mean the devil created them....wow. It means they are OF the devil because their deeds are evil just like the devils
Joh 8:38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."
Joh 8:39 They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did,
Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Joh 8:41 You are doing what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father--even God."
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

What does he sow? Discord, wickedness and evil! And that is what will be burned up (not humans).

That's NOT what the verse says though. Please show me where this verse says it will be his works that will be burned up?
Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

BTW a hyperbole is using an extreme example, not a parable. A parable is using a story to teach a greater truth, In this case the quoted portion is NOT a parable or a hyperbole but Jesus's own explanation OF the parable. A HYPERBOLE by example is where Jesus taught to hate your parents.

All we have to do is logically consider these verses, it is not literal.

You are incorrect. What you seem to be missing is that this is not a parable we are looking at...this is the EXPLANATION of the parable. That CJ, is literal. If it is not then NOTHING Jesus said is literal and every word of the bible can become subjective to anyones whims...

The verses are more than likely speaking of the end of the old covenant and the destruction to the Jewish culture, religion system and the Jewish state. The the righteous will shine in the new covenant, which is the KINGDOM of GOD.

More than likely? Even you don't sound convinced if you have to put it like that. Look Jesus said the field is the WORLD. The GOOD seed are the children of the kingdom. The weed are the children of the devil. There is a close of THE age. Jesus sends His angels as reapers. That's not parabolic. That is Jesus explaining the parable. What you are doing then is re-explaining the parable for Jesus and basically saying Jesus didn't explain it right.

God's presence was enjoyed by the Jews in Judea, and in their temple service. To be cast out of God's presence, is to be banished from Judea into captivity, and from all the privileges which the Jews enjoyed in their land, and temple worship. This was the destruction of their world, image the destruction of America and the world as we know it.

Not what the text says

II Kings 8:24:'And the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast them from His presence as yet' He says "as yet", then in the following passage we find that he did: II Kings 24:20, 'For through the anger of the Lord it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until He had cast them out from His presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon' this destruction was for only seventy years. They were later brought back into their lands.

Again that is not what jesus said.

The Jews today remain in "aionion" destruction and are cast out from the presence of the Lord, and they have been wailing with gnashing of their teeth in incredible oppression since 70 A.D. (the close of the age), yet all Israel will eventually be saved.

I repeat, that is NOT what Jesus said. However, if this is true then you should be able to exegise the words of Jesus and show

The verses are easily answered by allowing scripture to interpret scripture

Posting scriptures is easy....showing HOW they interpret another verse is the part I am waiting for.

Start by showing that jesus was NOT really explaining the parable before hand but was giving a new parable or hyperbole. Just saying it is so does not make it so

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Being sons of the devil does not mean the devil created them....wow. It means they are OF the devil because their deeds are evil just like the devils
Joh 8:38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."
Joh 8:39 They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did,
Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Joh 8:41 You are doing what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father--even God."
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


That's NOT what the verse says though. Please show me where this verse says it will be his works that will be burned up?
Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

BTW a hyperbole is using an extreme example, not a parable. A parable is using a story to teach a greater truth, In this case the quoted portion is NOT a parable or a hyperbole but Jesus's own explanation OF the parable. A HYPERBOLE by example is where Jesus taught to hate your parents.


You are incorrect. What you seem to be missing is that this is not a parable we are looking at...this is the EXPLANATION of the parable. That CJ, is literal. If it is not then NOTHING Jesus said is literal and every word of the bible can become subjective to anyones whims...


More than likely? Even you don't sound convinced if you have to put it like that. Look Jesus said the field is the WORLD. The GOOD seed are the children of the kingdom. The weed are the children of the devil. There is a close of THE age. Jesus sends His angels as reapers. That's not parabolic. That is Jesus explaining the parable. What you are doing then is re-explaining the parable for Jesus and basically saying Jesus didn't explain it right.


Not what the text says


Again that is not what jesus said.


I repeat, that is NOT what Jesus said. However, if this is true then you should be able to exegise the words of Jesus and show


Posting scriptures is easy....showing HOW they interpret another verse is the part I am waiting for.

Start by showing that jesus was NOT really explaining the parable before hand but was giving a new parable or hyperbole. Just saying it is so does not make it so

Though Jesus is explaining the parable of the Tares, he still is using parabolic language, even though He is speaking of a specific event.

He is speaking of the end of that age, the old covenant, and in doing so He is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in that age, for then "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father". John that Baptist came preaching the "Kingdom of God is at hand", the New Covenant.

He is not speaking of the end of this age in which we live.

He most certainly is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant.
My references from II Kings are very relevant as scripture interpreting scripture, to show what "in that culture" Jesus was speaking of, the very soon coming of Israel being again "cast out of the presence of the Lord.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. Benincasa,
As we both know Matt. 25:46 is the proof text of endless punishment:

"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, and the righteous into life eternal."

If we review the context it sheds doubt on this being endless punishment, since the recipients only stated failure is not considering the poor.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we recognize that God's punishments are remedial, all of God's punishments are of our Heavenly Father, therefore must be adapted to the improvement of His children. Hebrews 12:5-11 "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: for whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth ever son whom He receiveth." And then John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...."

Now we could at this point go into the meaning of the words translated "everlasting and eternal" however we both know there are numerous examples throughout scripture where these words are clearly not "endless" in meaning. Of course you may say: "Then eternal life is not endless, for the same Greek adjective defines the life and the punishment". This does not follow however, for the Greek work is used in different senses in the same sentence; as in Hab. 3:6. "And the everlasting mountains were scattered, His ways are everlasting." If the mountains are scattered how can they be everlasting? Of course the reference to God certainly is everlasting. The "aionion" mountains are destroyed, therefore the words "everlasting and eternal" can denote limited and unlimited duration in the same passage, the difference to be determined by the subjected treated.

For clarity let's start at the beginning; at creation, when all things were made by God. The scripture is clear, He began His work knowing full well about the fall of man and what was to come. This is very important to embrace. He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13.8)

He, who created all things, will "reconcile to Himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross" (Col. 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He "spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets long age" (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the "heir of ALL things" (Heb. 1:2) and in God's Son "shall ALL the nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).

Then I would add my signature line to this post:

Bump for EB

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Though Jesus is explaining the parable of the Tares, he still is using parabolic language, even though He is speaking of a specific event.

No he is NOT "using" parabolic language, lol. He is EXPLAINING the parable he just said

Mat 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field."

What you are saying is that he was NOT explaining the parable. He was just confusing them even more with MORE parable. That makes no sense. This was his clarifying...explaining a parable they did not understand.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

He is speaking of the end of that age, the old covenant, and in doing so He is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in that age, for then "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father". John that Baptist came preaching the "Kingdom of God is at hand", the New Covenant.

He is not speaking of the end of this age in which we live.

He most certainly is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant.
My references from II Kings are very relevant as scripture interpreting scripture, to show what "in that culture" Jesus was speaking of, the very soon coming of Israel being again "cast out of the presence of the Lord.

And I ask again then, PROVE it. Just asserting it over and over does not prove it. Quote the context and exegize the grammar and show how this is grammatically NOT referring to what Jesus just said it does refer to

Mat 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field."
Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world,and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

This bolded portion sets the context of this discourse: The arrival of the kingdom of God, was the ministry of Jesus, Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand..." this clearly sets the time frame of Jesus' parable, so the separating of the "wheat and the tares" would logically be the destruction of Israel in 70 AD, when the righteous escaped the city and the wicked were destroyed. Again, Jesus is explaining the end of that age and not the end of our age.

The consummation of the Kingdom is at the "end" when Jesus delivers the Kingdom over to God the Father (I Cor. 15:24).

Jesus said in Matt: 13:43 "THEN the righteous will shine..., this shows that the things He had said before came before the righteous shine. Therefore, He is speaking of the end of the old covenant age, and not the end of the kingdom age. Oh, it is speaking of what Jesus says it is speaking of, it is just NOT speaking of what Praxeas says it is speaking.

Therefore, your understanding of these passages is faulty. If I accept your point that he is not using parabolic language will you just consider my points of scirpture? Be blessed my friend.