I'm being bewitched.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by whoami

Because Aaron immediately duplicated it. It would seem to me that if they didn't think it was real, they would have just exposed the trick instead of duplicating it and allowing the deception to continue.

Like I said to Prax, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything! I don't know what I think about magic. I was always taught that it WAS in the Bible, this is the first time I've heard theories that maybe it wasn't.

In the story about the Exodus,*** Aaron's rod is described as swallowing up the "serpents" (rods) of the sorcerers. The point here being, the God of Israel is more powerful than the gods of Egypt.

*** As we've discussed so many times before, the Pentateuch was NOT written by Moses, but it was written by "holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" almost 1,000 years AFTER Moses and Aaron had lived - see Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (and so many other similar passages as well) and compare them to Ezra 9:7.

Abram is said to have pursued the kings all the why "unto Dan" (Genesis 14:14). Just how was that possible when Dan hadn't even been born yet? Dan's grandfather Isaac hadn't even been born yet. Also, this city ("Laish") wasn't renamed "Dan" until a couple of hundred years AFTER Moses died and was buried. Someone later than the book of Judges is responsible for the Pentateuch (much later - compare 1 Kings 8:8; 2 Kings 2:22; 2 Kings 10:27; 2 Chronicles 10:19; etc).

The phrase "unto this day" is used repeatedly from Genesis all the way through until the events described in Ezra 9 and Nehemiah 9 (the last use of the phrase "unto this day"). This phrase was used to validate different points in Israel's history and was directed toward a specific generation of people - those who were alive "in this day." Ezra 9, tells us why the Sopherim (scribes) used this phrase and tells us more about the point being made.

Moses gave us the Law, NOT the Pentateuch.

The account given in Exodus (no matter what happened) was never intended to be understood as an "eyewitness account" of events as seen and recorded by Moses.

And again, read 2 Timothy 3:1-9, for the Apostolic view of Exodus 7. No "magick" - just deceivers.

And further more... ... since Exodus at least appears to give the impression that it was Aaron acting under God's instructions who started the "magical" escapades, why doesn't Flutecrafter do any "magic" anymore?

Surely God could use such a powerful magician to His own glory, just the same way that 'Toot tells us that God used the magick of Aaron.

Now, prove it. 1 Thessalonian 5:21.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by pelathais

*** As we've discussed so many times before, the Pentateuch was NOT written by Moses, but it was written by "holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" almost 1,000 years AFTER Moses and Aaron had lived - see Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (and so many other similar passages as well) and compare them to Ezra 9:7.

Any sources for this idea that Moses didn't write the Pentateuch? My textbooks are all presenting his authorship as most probable.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

Any sources for this idea that Moses didn't write the Pentateuch? My textbooks are all presenting his authorship as most probable.

This "doctor" says Moses is the probable writer as well...



http://www.biblicaltraining.org/old-...douglas-stuart

[Flutecrafter]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the story about the Exodus,*** Aaron's rod is described as swallowing up the "serpents" (rods) of the sorcerers. The point here being, the God of Israel is more powerful than the gods of Egypt.

*** As we've discussed so many times before, the Pentateuch was NOT written by Moses, but it was written by "holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" almost 1,000 years AFTER Moses and Aaron had lived - see Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (and so many other similar passages as well) and compare them to Ezra 9:7.

First off, yes, the Pentateuch was written by Moses.
Secondly, even if your theory was true, it would also prove my point anyway.

The account given in Exodus (no matter what happened) was never intended to be understood as an "eyewitness account" of events as seen and recorded by Moses.

So you hold that the Book of Exodus is in error, then?

And further more... ... since Exodus at least appears to give the impression that it was Aaron acting under God's instructions who started the "magical" escapades, why doesn't Flutecrafter do any "magic" anymore?

Surely God could use such a powerful magician to His own glory, just the same way that 'Toot tells us that God used the magick of Aaron.

Now, prove it. 1 Thessalonian 5:21.

Does the depths of your foolishness know no bounds, Pel?
First off, you lie repeatedly about what I believe.... (that is really what you
are doing when you attribute things to people that they didn't say so that
you can bolster an argument that you are putting forth)
During all of this you ask me to engage in sin multiple times for your entertainment.
You wish to deny what is written in Exodus is magik, then you want to know
why I don't use magik (a sin) for God using that same passage... as your
basis.
Since you obviously know nothing at all about this subject, I reckon I should
let you know a few points:
I do not engage in magik anymore because God says not to do so.
Both in His word and to me personally.
You have now stated that Aaron used magik in the showdown he had with
the mages of Egypt, lending an extra magnitude of apparent shallowness to
your understanding of God's word as well as the workings of the spiritual realm.
Those Holy men of God... including Aaron and Moses, were granted power
from our Lord to operate in a supernatural capacity. This is not the same
as those working magik. (they have an altogether different source for the
power they are using)


Mark
Coracle Ministries

[houston]

Heh... I thought Joshua finished the Pent. How did Moses write of his own death after the fact?

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by houston

Heh... I thought Joshua finished the Pent. How did Moses write of his own death after the fact?

That appendix was obviously written by someone else. But the majority of the text for the Pentateuch is understood to have been written by Moses. Unless Pel has interesting sources that might convince me otherwise.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Timmy

If one particular feat is not reproducible by a particular practitioner, this does not mean said practitioner cannot do other feats, and doesn't mean magick (today's or the OT's) isn't real.

(I don't believe it is, either. Just sayin'.)

Actually, if such a feat was not reproducible by any practitioner of today then it seems to me that such a feat is impossible and was never done by a practitioner of old. This takes all the magick out of Exodus 7 and leaves the only possible explanation as a simple illusion. Without Exodus 7 what other prooftext can be used to support magick being real? And without any prooftexts then we must turn to real world tests/studies on magick. For some reason i think magick doesn't perform well in these tests/studies...

[houston]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

That appendix was obviously written by someone else. But the majority of the text for the Pentateuch is understood to have been written by Moses. Unless Pel has interesting sources that might convince me otherwise.

Yeah... and DAvid gets credit for all of the Psalms.

[Flutecrafter]

Since so many of y'all good church folk seem to believe that the Bible is in
error in the wording of Exodus 7 and 8, here are a few more items.

2 Chronicles 33

5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the
house of the LORD.

6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the
son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used
witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought
much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Micah 5

11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong
holds:

12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no
more soothsayers:



I bolded the practice that one of you keeps enouraging me to engage in again.

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I
tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such
things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Deuteronomy 18

9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee,
thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of
times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a
necromancer.

Oh, and just for you, Pel:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
+++++
There are spirits and Almighty God Himself is not deaf to the cries of His people. But by definition, this is outside the realm of "magick." +++++

++++Originally Posted by Flutecrafter View Post
LOL
Where do you think the power which drives magik actually comes from?
(hint: no I'm not talking about God here either, before you take it there.)****

Originally Posted by pelathais

Again, prove it.

Acts 16

16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed
with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by
soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the
servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to
the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.
And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they
caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

[Flutecrafter]

Originally Posted by houston

Yeah... and DAvid gets credit for all of the Psalms.

does he?