UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by jfrog

...Apparently is not a good word to denote speculation. It is a word that is often associated with things which are readily seen, visible, easily understood, plain, clear, obvious. In fact, it was along these very lines that I understood your use of the word: "apparently (according to the facts we know, she was clearly, plainly and obviously there) with neither spouse nor any third party present."

"often assosciated with..." does not define a word. Your understanding - or misunderstanding - of a word does not determine whether or not my usage of said word is acceptable and proper. Merriam-Webster.com defines Apparently, thusly:

Originally Posted by mwo

Main Entry: ap·par·ent·ly
Pronunciation: \-lē\
Function: adverb
Date: 1566
: it seems apparent <the window had apparently been forced open> <apparently, we're supposed to wait here>

and further defines "apparent" as:

Originally Posted by mwo

Main Entry: ap·par·ent
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈper-ənt, -ˈpa-rənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French apparant, from Latin apparent-, apparens, present participle of apparēre to appear
Date: 14th century
1 : open to view : visible
2 : clear or manifest to the understanding <reasons that are readily apparent>
3 : appearing as actual to the eye or mind
4 : having an indefeasible right to succeed to a title or estate
5 : manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid <the air of spontaneity is perhaps more apparent than real — J. R. Sutherland>
— ap·par·ent·ness \-nəs\ noun
synonyms apparent, illusory, seeming, ostensible mean not actually being what appearance indicates.

The article does give us enough evidence to make it seem to be 3 : appearing as actual to the ...mind, or seem to 5 : manifest to the...mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid that she was alone with the man.

Originally Posted by jfrog

... So...it was just speculation

I have already agreed with that point.

Originally Posted by jfrog

...and since your speculated scenario had no basis for being any more probable than any other scenario then it was apparently wild speculation.

Oh but it does have a basis for being more probable. If other people where present before the husband "caught" her there, then there would be no opportunity for any improper activity. The fact that the husband and pastor are all in a tiff about "what could have been" makes it SEEM (can you say apparent?) that there was no one else there to prevent what could have been. So my speculation isnt really all that wild, after all.

Originally Posted by jfrog

...So yes, I have included you in that "some" that are trying to turn this back onto the woman with wild speculation.

Now that is wild speculation, seeing how I have adamantly stated the pastor was wrong and should have all his positions, including that of pastor, revoked. You assume a motive and assign it to me, without any word or action on my part which leads one to the reasonable conclusion that I have any such motive.

Originally Posted by jfrog

...some have tried to defend him by wildly speculating that the woman involved in this case must somehow be partly to blame. By making her appear bad then anything that he did wrong doesn't seem quite as bad... some have tried to defend him by wildly speculating that the woman involved in this case must somehow be partly to blame. By making her appear bad then anything that he did wrong doesn't seem quite as bad...

More wild speculation on your part. You assume I am trying to defend him when quite the opposite is true. There is no defense for what he did. Have you ever heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" ? My only purpose for mentioning her actions is to prevent anyone from reasonably assuming I am condoning any woman being immodestly dressed in the presence of any male other than her husband.

Originally Posted by jfrog

As for your main point I disagree. The unanamious agreement that a leader did wrong who is far away and distant and most of us have never met only shows that we lack any personal connections to that leader...So, I'm not sure this case is such a good one to use as proof positive that the UPCI is not "cultish". (DISCLAIMER: I DID NOT SAY I BELIEVE THE UPCI IS CULTISH. THOUGH THERE ARE SOME CHURCHES IN IT THAT I'M SURE ARE).

You do have a valid point there. It is weak evidence, but not totally invalid.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I am not joking. Pentecostals don't wear bikinis; at least not real Pentecostals. Why was she at a pool with someone other than her husband, and why dressed that way? What was her motivation?

Let's get real. No one, not even a good atheist, goes to the pool with someone other than their spouse dressed like that unless they have a motive that is not godly.

If I were her husband, I would believe the act constituted unfaithfulness (cheating). Her desire was not to him, it was to another.

now I have to say "you gotta be kidding me"?? You gotta get your head out of the sand... wake up and realize it is 2010. Do you realize what most young women wear to the beach??? I would know as I just got back from beaching it for a week. Motivation is: everyone else does it, they're in style, body good enough to show off, to name a few.

Personally I don't think they are condusive to Christians, but you probably wouldn't think my swimwear was either...and quite frankly, it isn't anyone else's business.

I don't care why this woman was in the company of a friend in a bikini....it does not mean that she committed fornication, was being immoral, or is grounds for a divorce/remarriage.

Personally feel this pastor was trying to make excuses for his daughter being in a relationship/marrying a divorced man. Seen this type of thing all my life.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

now I have to say "you gotta be kidding me"?? You gotta get your head out of the sand... wake up and realize it is 2010. Do you realize what most young women wear to the beach??? I would know as I just got back from beaching it for a week. Motivation is: everyone else does it, they're in style, body good enough to show off, to name a few.

Personally I don't think they are condusive to Christians, but you probably wouldn't think my swimwear was either...and quite frankly, it isn't anyone else's business.

I don't care why this woman was in the company of a friend in a bikini....it does not mean that she committed fornication, was being immoral, or is grounds for a divorce/remarriage.

Personally feel this pastor was trying to make excuses for his daughter being in a relationship/marrying a divorced man. Seen this type of thing all my life.

BeenThinkin

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Michlow

I confess, I only read 54 of the 80 pages of this thread before I literally couldn't take anymore. To be honest, it's been fascinating reading. I can't imagine people being so mortified at the thought of a woman wearing a bikini in public. I know once upon a time I probably would have been one of them...which is even more amazing to me.

I'm with you on that one... they just have not a clue do they? I'm not and never have been built for one, but know plenty of moral, married and single women who are built nice, and do wear them.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

I'm with you on that one... they just have not a clue do they? I'm not and never have been built for one, but know plenty of moral, married and single women who are built nice, and do wear them.

But do they wear them in public - mixed company ? If so, I'm sorry, but I personally don't think that is "modest".

I don't think wearing them in mixed company means they are (or necessarily will) commit adultery or fornication - but I don't believe it is "modest".

JMHO

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

...I don't care why this woman was in the company of a friend in a bikini....it does not mean that she committed fornication, was being immoral, or is grounds for a divorce/remarriage.

Personally feel this pastor was trying to make excuses for his daughter being in a relationship/marrying a divorced man. Seen this type of thing all my life.

I agree with every point you make here except one.

Some, including me, consider immodesty immoral and have scriptural support in that view. Some, including me, consider bikinis immodestly revealing except when in private alone or with a spouse. Therefore, wearing a bikini in the presence of a man not her husband = immodest = immoral.

And yet, I agree that immodest does not=fornication, and thus is not grounds for divorce. I also agree that apparently (There's that word again! I love it!) Pastor Fogarty was making excuses for what, from a biblical perspective, is an unacceptable relationship and subsequent marriage. In fact, from a biblical perspective, it would appear that Mr and Mrs Rider are living in adultery, because there were no biblical grounds (that we know of) for him to divorce the first Mrs. Rider and in God's eyes, He and the first Mrs Rider are still one flesh. And Pastor Fogarty condones this!

I wonder if jfrog still thinks I am trying to defend Pastor Fogarty.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

now I have to say "you gotta be kidding me"?? You gotta get your head out of the sand... wake up and realize it is 2010. Do you realize what most young women wear to the beach??? I would know as I just got back from beaching it for a week. Motivation is: everyone else does it, they're in style, body good enough to show off, to name a few.

Personally I don't think they are condusive to Christians, but you probably wouldn't think my swimwear was either...and quite frankly, it isn't anyone else's business.

I don't care why this woman was in the company of a friend in a bikini....it does not mean that she committed fornication, was being immoral, or is grounds for a divorce/remarriage.

Personally feel this pastor was trying to make excuses for his daughter being in a relationship/marrying a divorced man. Seen this type of thing all my life.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. We are supposed to look around and realize it is 2010 and get our head out of the sand? So if people start going topless, we are going to get our head out of the sand and get on with the program, going topless?

When is it modest, Biblically, to walk around in front of men who we are not married to, showing our bodies off just because they look good?

The point being made is not what other women of the world were or are doing. The point is, which is the topic of the first paragraph of this thread and why it is being addressed, the women WAS married and her husband FOUND her WITH another man wearing a bikini. It doesn't matter if she was fornicating or not. It still, no way around it, looks like intent and that is what the pastor was addressing. The pastor is not addressing unchurched people. He was addressing someone that was Apostolic.

Apostolic women do not dress in that fashion and if they do, I would surmise there is something seriously wrong.

Now, if she was "unhappy" because she did not believe the standards and didn't want to live them, that is her prerogative to find another church. However, I would hope that she would desire to be a modest Christian woman even if the didn't want to live by a stricter standard of dress. In my opinion, she did not do that and it looked to me as though the pastor was right - she was not a submissive woman.

That makes me wonder as to the details of the actual church service. Mrs.McD said he is NOT an overbearing man, but is strict on standards. If he is NOT overbearing, it would be very hard for me to think he presented himself as a jerk over the pulpit.

Just because this women filed a lawsuit and the lawsuit gave us a few snippets of what he said doesn't give me cause to take that for face value. I did not tell the WHOLE of what he said. I did not hear the testimony of the defense and I also know that this is a secular court who have a mind to rule with secular thinking and not Biblical thinking. You can bet that her attorney focused on the the negative without laying out a balance, if there was one. We don't know, we didn't hear it all.

As I said before, I am not concerned with what the world is doing. The Bible commands us to dress as women professing godliness. If anyone thinks that a bikini falls into that category, then that is just a very scary thought indeed! With the world in the place it is today, it seems that we would want to be more careful how we present ourselves to the public.

There is a thread started with a video of a Christian woman, not a standards keeper, admonishing women to cover up their bodies and that we don't want to see their boobs. Thank God for that!

[Sherri]

I don't think a bikini is modest in mixed company at all, but it sounds like the pastor in this case was trying to cover up for his daughter's relationship. Once again, a person's lifestyle (or his daughter's, in this case) tends to dictate his theology. A Christian woman in a bikini around other men is very unwise, but it's NOT adultery/fornication!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I don't think a bikini is modest in mixed company at all, but it sounds like the pastor in this case was trying to cover up for his daughter's relationship. Once again, a person's lifestyle (or his daughter's, in this case) tends to dictate his theology. A Christian woman in a bikini around other men is very unwise, but it's NOT adultery/fornication!

What if the men are turned on by her? Married men?

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28.

Has she caused the man to commit adultery?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

What if the men are turned on by her? Married men?

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28.

Has she caused the man to commit adultery?

Totally possible she could be a contributing factor, but, fact is, they may very well have done the same if she were in a burka.