Fundamental Doctrine

[pastor febus]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Here the application of hyper-dispensationalism will fail us. The BIBLE clearly states that the disciples of John had the remission of sins.

Mar 1:4-4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luk 1:77-78 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

Luk 3:3-4 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Your argument here isn't with me, it's with Mark, Luke, John the Baptist and Zacharias the father of John along with the Holy Spirit that filled these men. They said "THE REMISSION OF SINS." If no ones sins were remitted by the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins - then John wouldn't have "wasted all that time" calling people to repentance and baptizing them.

They received "THE REMISSION OF SINS."

John's disciples in Acts 19, clearly had the remission of sins already; yet Paul still rebaptized them in Jesus' name. He wasn't "wasting time." He was doing something important. But what he did was NOT for the remission of the sins of these disciples.

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So are you saying that the ministry of John dispensed new testament remission of sins BEFORE the cross. Please clarify.

[pastor febus]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Good, then we agree that someone needs to repent, be baptized in Jesus' name and receive Holy Ghost. Just disagree as to why.

Now you know how the PCI and PAJC managed to merge.

Peace out.

I wish it was that simple.

Unfortunately, certan aspects of this dogma lead to universalism.

[pastor febus]

I will cease for now. I do have a life beyond this computer.
Blessings.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by pastor febus

I will cease for now. I do have a life beyond this computer.
Blessings.

Originally Posted by pastor febus

I wish it was that simple.

Unfortunately, certan aspects of this dogma lead to universalism.

We all have life beyond this computer, but I do have a question...

"Certain aspects of this dogma lead to universalism..." How so?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Thanks Sis. And with regard to the whole "One Stepper"/"Three Stepper" thing - it is a sloppy shorthand and it does tend to ignore the fact the most "Three Steppers" actually articulate things like God's grace in the same fashion as "One Steppers."

But it is historic terminology that many people in the discussion immediate recognize and can use to jump right into the fray.

With regard to Acts 2:38 and "remission of sins" - Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77-78 and Luke 3:3, all tell us that the "disciples of John" - those who were baptized in John's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" had all received just that: the remission of sins!

The language here is identical to Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins." Some people want to argue about the meaning of "for" in these passages. Does it mean "because of" or does it mean "in order to..."? For me, I see that the Greek word "εις" can mean either, depending on context; so what does it mean here? (Clicking this link opens a PDF document on the subject).

One way to try and see, is to look at how the "disciples of John" would be later incorporated into the "disciples of Jesus Christ." Acts 18:24-28 and Acts 19:1-8, has an account of several people (including Apollos) who went through just this process.

Now, John the Baptist and John's father Zacharias (speaking as he was 'filled with the Spirit') along with Mark and Luke ALL tell us that the disciples of John the Baptist already had "the remission of sins" through repentance and John's baptism.

So, why does Paul rebaptize people in Jesus' name who already have clearly received the remission of sins? AND - How does this help to inform our understanding of Acts 2:38, in the "in order to receive" versus "because of" debate?

For me, it does appear that water baptism in the name of Jesus is an essential element for entering into the Christian community. However, the "remission of sins" is a work associated with Calvary, the blood of Jesus Christ and BY TYPE - the repentance of the believer.

Good post, Pel. Nicely said.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pastor febus

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So are you saying that the ministry of John dispensed new testament remission of sins BEFORE the cross. Please clarify.

I am saying that the ministry of John "dispensed" the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. That is what the Bible clearly says.

I don't hold to strict ultra-dispensationalist concepts as what I think I hear you're insisting upon. God is the author of salvation, and while Israel became a type of salvation through the rituals of the Law, the same God who saved Noah by grace saved Abraham by grace and He saves us by grace as well.

Luke 1:77-78. The "tender mercy of our God."

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pastor febus

I will cease for now. I do have a life beyond this computer.
Blessings.

Have a blessed weekend.