Mooney Guns for "Secret" Meeting in Detroit?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by CC1

Barb, Thanks for your posts about your church and pastor.

I think I read a post where someone intimated that Anthony Mangun was at the same place philosophicaly as his SIL. From what I know that is not the case. Ironically AM, who is consieredl liberal by many (which I don't understand) is apparently much more conservative than Pastor Hennigan.

You can put that in the bank, especially as long as VM and GM are still alive.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You can put that in the bank, especially as long as VM and GM are still alive.

Years ago I was one of those that believed AM was a closet lib who would not make any changes until his parents were gone. However since VM and GM have decided to live to 150 AM has gotten old and set in his ways in the process to the point I believe he really is pretty conservative now.

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by CC1

So where would you place the hands on your churches "UPC Clock"? Think of a clock in the sense of the doomsday clock that scientist have the hands a couple of minutes before midnight because of the threat of nuclear destruction How close are you guys to leaving voluntarily or being forced out? Does it depend on how firmly districts will act on the Bernard letter template of getting pastors / churches in line?

Good question. I don't really know. As far as I'm concerned, we could stay or go and it wouldn't really matter to me one way or the other. I'm certain that someone cares about it - either us leaving or being kicked out, but not sure whether we're closer to 11:58 or 11:59 ...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Saw that you said something about changing memebership lastyear....what was that about?

I personally changed my church membership from where I was to where I am now.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Barb

I personally changed my church membership from where I was to where I am now.

Ah ok...

[timlan2057]

I think you people are missing the boat on Anthony Mangun.

I will give my opinion--commentators do it all the time.

Anthony Mangun is the ultimate pragmatist. He will do what is good and right for Anthony Mangun.

I'm not saying he's a hypocrite--far from it. He's just a smart player. He is NO Joan of Arc and he is not going to fall on his sword for anyone.

If you could give Anthony Mangun a truth serum (not that he'd lie, just that he keeps these thoughts locked up in himself) where he HAD to speak his mind and heart on these issues:

AM would say these dress "standards" were absolute hogwash.

But Anthony Mangun is not so dramatic (or dumb) to get up at POA and give some sort of "We were wrong!" sermon. Why should he? He's in the catbird seat and he knows eventually it will fade away without him saying a word.

True, as someone pointed out, GA and Vesta are apparently going to live to be 100, but so what? Anthony is Senior Pastor of a huge church and life is good.

Why rock the boat? He can pay lip service to these things. He is not a man of convictions--liberal or conservative--so much that he's going to make a political or ministerial martyr of himself over them.

Even so, Anthony is no conservative in the sense of the UPC neanderthals. I saw him a couple years ago at the Louisiana high school state championship basketball game at the Cajundome in Lafayette and I have it on good authority that he attends LSU football games.

Something telling to me about Anthony: he was always a Dallas Cowboys fan.

I am a purist here--I believe a man of character sticks with his teams through thick and thin--he lives and dies with them through winning and losing.

Back in the late-eighties when the Cowboys were terrible, going 1-15, I was talking with Anthony on the phone and ragged him about it a little. His reply was matter-of-fact: "I'm a Saints fan."

He no doubt jumped on the Cowboys' bandwagon again in the 90s but if you ask him now? I bet he's a Saints fan. lol

So ... he's always going to make his bed on the winning side.

While deep down inside I think he believes that a lot of UPC legalism is hogwash, he will NEVER lead a revolution over it.

Not when things are just hunky-dory for him and as the writer James Thurber said, when he's sitting in the catbird seat.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Barb

Though I have resolved to bow out of posting, and rarely lurk anymore, the discussion of the ‘Plano Meeting’, and the previous meeting have caused me to briefly return.

There was MUCH discussion last year regarding the meeting held in Auburn Hills. I will speak to that first, as this is my home church and Brother Steve Warman is my pastor…

Prior to changing our membership in late August of last year, my mother and I spoke with Bro. & Sis. Warman, specifically to answer our questions regarding the rumor mill. Along with what I had read here, we had heard The Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills as being “charismatic” and “liberal.”

So, being folks who believe in going to the source if we have a question, we went DIRECTLY to them. We spoke about 2 specific points…the meeting, and the teaching of this particular assembly.

I will not reveal the contents of our conversation, other than, do not believe every negative thing you have heard.

That is all I will say about it…

For those with questions regarding the meeting, or the upcoming meeting, I'm certain Brother W would welcome your call or visit in PERSON…receiving FIRST HAND information is always the better way to go, wouldn’t y’all agree?

Church phone:

248-373-4500

Second, this talk about the “libs” having a meeting…that those who attended the last one or will be attending the new meeting are “liberal” ministers is a matter of opinion, and certainly does not apply to my pastor.

Opinions and judgments of others is truly just a matter of one’s perspective. And unless one is in position to see and experience the teaching of a particular pastor, and know his heart and vision for the church where he labors, the rumbling from the cheap seats is suspect.

This morning I was sitting in the waiting room while my mom had a doctor’s appointment, and I read an article in Newsweek which was quite interesting.

It was an interview with former Senator Alan Simpson, Republican and co-chairman of President Obama's bipartisan commission for reducing the mounting federal debt.

He said he is receiving flak from Republicans that he is a turncoat because he is on this committee.

Senator Simpson said that engraved in the podium in the congressional hall is the word ‘Tolerance.’ He said that it is not something seen much today, not just in Congress, but anywhere.

I thought about that, and realized how true it is in the Church…

People have 2 words to throw at those with a differing view...tolerance and compromise.

Compromise is a word I strongly dislike, only because of the way it is used today. It conjures up visions of people “selling the farm,” and being “soft on the message,” and all of the other clichés we can think of.

However, the word means the settlement of a disagreement by mutual concession. That would be the ground the UNITED Pentecostal Church, International was founded on, folks...the concession being that they would not contend for the differing views to the disunity of the body.

Unfortunately, we have those who say the merger never should have taken place...that the differences were too great and the organization was built on compromise...

So let me get this straight...if we take compromise the way it is thought of today, instead of viewing the UPCI as being built on a rock, we see the foundation was built on sand.

If the foundation was shaky, than it was doomed to fall.

Let's forget about all of the people saved from a devil's hell, and the miracles, and the great and mighty men and women of God who have preached and taught the Word.

It was all for naught because the handwriting was on the wall from jump.

Or was it?

Compromise, as it is defined in the dictionary, brought about a great Apostolic body of believers, who worked hand in hand for Kingdom sake.

Now it's a dirty word...amazing.

Tolerance means forbearance, indulgence, patience, sufferance, acceptance, understanding, an allowable variation in any measurable property.

Folks don't like tolerant Apostolics either...

They think acceptance means to condone sin, but that's not what it is at all.

It simply means acceptance of the possibiltyof a different view. It seems to me that this was the heart and mind of the merger, that monumental event so many are willing to cast aside like a worn out shoe.

And so we have men who preach less than what we deem is acceptable…tell me, please, sir and madam…do you fellowship or cutoff those who preach more than you deem necessary? Have those with more cut you off and cast you to the four winds as being ‘ a compromising liberal’?

See folks…we can’t cut this pie one way. This all a matter of perspective.

This salvation thing is not about you or me. It is about the Lord God Almighty. He and He alone will do the separating, and He alone is worthy to judge.

You have to understand that His judgment is a righteous judgment. We judge according to our personal convictions, and whether folks have ruffled our feathers in not following our agenda.

Someone can be on our A list and drop to Z before the sun sets this evening. And for what? Because we heard something, or because we think we know something?

God doesn’t judge that way. He does not follow whim and fad. He is not influenced by the rumor mill. The Lord does not see ‘Emergent Church’ around every corner.

My 79 year old momma said this morning, “What happened to the days when we just went to church?”

Today we are so busy looking at someone else and what they are, or are not doing.

Wonder what God thinks about all this? Wonder if it grieves His Spirit as much as it grieves some of us?

Just a final word, and I‘m done…

For those who see ‘libs’ behind every tree, I can’t speak for any pastor except my own…

If folks think he’s a liberal as in loosey-goosey, greasy-grace, lax, relaxed, and permissive…to quote Bro. Epley, “They are as wrong as 2 boys kissing!”

But if you mean liberal, as in bountiful, generous, openhearted, openhanded, giving, charitable, fair, unbiased, tolerant, you would be correct.

I do not know if my pastor or any of our elders are attending this meeting, but if they are, that is their choice. I trust them enough to trust they know what is best.

Now I am done…

Sister Barb,

I have read your response and everyone else's and I think you are fair and balanced in defense of vicious rumors. Not everything should be discussed on AFF nor used to 'stir up conversation'. Thank you for standing up for the right!

Blessings,
Rhoni

[Jack Shephard]

Timlan-
I can see part of what you are saying. I would like to believe that AM says what he believes, but I would like to believe that about all ministers. I am sure that he has said things so he doesn't ruffle feathers. I don't blame him. I do think that if the UPCI is ever to get where I think that God wants it to be, a lot less legalism, the Org will need some voices.
A revolution may be too strong of a word for it, but it might be the only one that describes it enough. I have heard that there are some relatively 'big names' out there that are wanting to push this. I think there has to be voices of people with big influence to speak up and say what they think. I wonder what would happen if a person with influence were to speak up. Wonder if people would follow or puch against.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Posted on another thread but certainly on point for this one.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=24979


Recently there has been genuine fear and resulting backlash among some of the leadership elite in the UPCI.

Young ministers especially (of which there are so precious few left) are no longer satisfied with the two pat answers given when they have questions about “standards’ and procedures. Namely:

1 Because I said so.
2 Because that’s the way we have always done it.

IF certain “standards” are heaven or hell issues then why are they not deemed as such in “The Manual”?

Isn’t that a legitimate question?

The truth is in times past such ministers did simply leave the organization.

This time it is different. One thing that out of touch leaders have failed to note is that there has been a MAJOR shift of the center within the UPCI over the past decade or so, and this time there are men who refuse to be driven off from the organization they love and have spent their life working within.

And as has been pointed out in other threads and other forums the lament from certain leaders is “why oh why don’t they just go away like all the others did?”

The simple answer is they are actually aligned with the current mainstream of the UPCI, and if they hang around they WILL eventually be elected to offices were they WILL represent the true feelings and principles of the rank and file.

This scares certain factions who are used to saying “boo” and watching men scatter.

That is the Great Fear, it is not working this time.

There is nothing subversive going on.

Good men, spiritual men, who believe that Acts 2:38 is the only correct response to the gospel are coming together. Not to question the Bible but to discuss mindless dicta from out of touch leaders, and how to deal with it in a godly manner.

Good post!

[D. Wright]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Sister Barb,

I have read your response and everyone else's and I think you are fair and balanced in defense of vicious rumors. Not everything should be discussed on AFF nor used to 'stir up conversation'. Thank you for standing up for the right!

Blessings,
Rhoni

What are the vicious rumors?