Is it Ethical? - Page 8

Baron1710 · #71 03-05-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

Are you thinking of Elijah's statement on Horeb, "I alone am left?"

I don't quite take it that he was "lying" - perhaps exaggerating as a means of expression his own sense of desolation. Or it could have been that he actually did think that he alone was left of the prophets.

No. In I Kings 18 Obadiah tells Elijah that he has hid hundreds of prophets in verse 13. Then in verse 22 he claims to be the only prophet left.

Baron1710 · #72 03-05-2010, 05:28 PM

He wasn't going to say, "It's just me, and Oh ya those hundreds of prophets who are hidden so Jezzy won't kill them"

Twisp · #73 03-05-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

The clear example from Scripture is that it is permissible to lie when protecting human lives. The Hebrew midwives lied and God rewarded them, Rahab lied and God rewarded her for it. Moses lied or at least deceived pharaoh, Elijah lied when he said there were no other prophets left.

Some people just can't handle anything that isn't black and white.

To use another Biblical example, Abram lied to Pharaoh about Sarai not being his wife. His reasoning was to save himself from being killed. God sent plagues to the house of Pharaoh until Abram admitted the lie and left. Abraham also told Abimelech that Sarah was his sister, and the Lord threatened to kill him for taking Sarah. While the reason for that lie was not given, one can safely assume that Abraham told it to spare his life.

In both cases, the liar had a very real reason to fear for his life. In both cases, the Lord made it very clear that the lie was wrong.

I agree that there isn't not always a black and white solution for us, though. It is something I am going through right now.

Baron1710 · #74 03-05-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisp

To use another Biblical example, Abram lied to Pharaoh about Sarai not being his wife. His reasoning was to save himself from being killed. God sent plagues to the house of Pharaoh until Abram admitted the lie and left. Abraham also told Abimelech that Sarah was his sister, and the Lord threatened to kill him for taking Sarah. While the reason for that lie was not given, one can safely assume that Abraham told it to spare his life.

In both cases, the liar had a very real reason to fear for his life. In both cases, the Lord made it very clear that the lie was wrong.

I agree that there isn't not always a black and white solution for us, though. It is something I am going through right now.

Lying to save ones self doesn't seem to have the same effect as lying to save others does it?

Abraham's lies caused, or almost caused, others to sin.

Twisp · #75 03-05-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Lying to save ones self doesn't seem to have the same effect as lying to save others does it?

Abraham's lies caused, or almost caused, others to sin.

So then you would say that lying to save other's lives is different than lying to save your own?

I would say that lying for any reason we can dream up is wrong.

I would say that in the case of "God sanctioned" lying in the Bible, that the Lord impressed upon the liar to say what they said. No, it is not written that He did, but that is the only way I can see to justify it.

pelathais · #76 03-05-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

No. In I Kings 18 Obadiah tells Elijah that he has hid hundreds of prophets in verse 13. Then in verse 22 he claims to be the only prophet left.

Okay. I only had the Horeb discussion in mind. Good find.

I still have some difficulty in saying "Elijah lied," however. The writer of this passage does not appear to link the two statements together for contrast, thus exposing Elijah's "lie."

But then again, perhaps Elijah's statement was intended to serve the same purpose as Obadiah's courageous action of "hiding" the prophets in a cave. If Elijah could get Ahab and Jezebel to focus all of their attention upon him, then perhaps more of the other prophets might escape the sword... so Elijah courageously proclaims, "Here I am - I'm all that's left to oppose you! Come and get me!"

However this scenario seems to fail to link up adequately with the Lord's gentle rebuke at Horeb. At Horeb Elijah appears to really think he's the only one left (Romans 11:1-4).

Baron1710 · #77 03-05-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisp

So then you would say that lying to save other's lives is different than lying to save your own?

I would say that lying for any reason we can dream up is wrong.

I would say that in the case of "God sanctioned" lying in the Bible, that the Lord impressed upon the liar to say what they said. No, it is not written that He did, but that is the only way I can see to justify it.

I would suggest the book, Evangelical Ethics.

TruthBuyer · #78 03-05-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

My point exactly let's say truth has 10 levels. If I tell a level 2 truth with the intent of disguising level 8 truth... have I sinned?

Jesus told them parables to mask the ultimate reality of a truth, this could be seen by purists as a deceptive practice.

Someone call a philosopher...quick.

And when and if a philosopher should answer that call, ya'll can listen attentively and thirstily drink in his every word while he babbles on about all the nuances of the different levels of truth. In the meantime, I'll be considering what the scripture has to say about truth...and philosophers.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Again, at no time and in no way whatsoever did Jesus speak with intent to deceive. Such a suggestion - as you did make - is in no way whatsoever agreeable with the nature of Christ. Jesus spoke only the truth.

1John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Yes, the truth he spoke was often disguised in parables. Yes, the truth he spoke was often hard to understand. But it was still 100% the truth. He wasn't flirting with lying so that he wouldn't actually have to tell the truth. He wasn't twisting the truth into an elaborate pretzel form so that he wouldn't have to actually tell the truth. He wasn't hiding the truth behind a lie. He merely told the truth in such a way that those who didn't actually want to know the truth would not understand it.

This is very much different than hiding the truth behind a lie. Any [so-called] philosopher who says differently is a certifiable nutcase.

To answer your question, assuming that when you say "level 2 truth" that you mean that that "level" 2 truth" is still 100% truth, of course not, how can telling 100% truth be sinning?

However, if by "level 2 truth" you mean something that is not 100% truth, then yes, you are sinning. The truth is, 99% truth mixed with 1% lie equals 100% deceit.

Think of it like this: If you add 1 drop of poison to a pure cup of water, how much of that water is poisoned?

missourimary · #79 03-05-2010, 07:14 PM

List the verses where the Bible specifically says we shouldn't lie or deceive anyone ever.

*AQuietPlace* · #80 03-05-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisp

So then you would say that lying to save other's lives is different than lying to save your own?

I would say that lying for any reason we can dream up is wrong.

I would say that in the case of "God sanctioned" lying in the Bible, that the Lord impressed upon the liar to say what they said. No, it is not written that He did, but that is the only way I can see to justify it.

I'm not sure that I follow your logic. It's never okay to lie.... unless God tells you to?