Can Women Pastor ?

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Aren't behaviors expected of women culturally shaped?

Yes, but he was talking about some american woman...

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

God's true ministers are the ones to which we are to submit as the Scripture says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account..." (Hebrews 13:17).

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble" (I Peter 5:5).

The command here to submit unto the elder is not referring to what we generally term as elders in the church, but rather to those who are older and more knowledgeable in the Lord. Elder women are used of the Lord to help guide young Christians, male or female, as it certainly does not make sense for a young male convert to instruct a woman who has walked with the Lord for many years,

Then this means that we can have no younger preachers who preach to women older than him??? Josiah was only 8 yrs. old when he took the throne. Timothy was a youth & Paul instructed him, "these things COMMAND and teach." I agree that older women should teach younger women, but Scripture teaches that elder men are to teach younger men....not women instructing men.

simply because he is of male sex. The Word of God demands respect for the elders, male and female. "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity" (I Timothy 5:1-2).

Respect...absolutely. But women are not to "teach" men in a church setting according to the plain statements of Scripture.

Blessings................

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sara´s name is right there...

C'mon Sis. Alvear, do you honestly believe that Sara was a "Minister" of the Gospel????

And, since the Greek term for elders is always masculine, is Sarah now a man????

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Titus 2:3, Paul tells Titus that elder women should be teachers of the right way of life,

"Likewise, teach the older women (elder women) to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good," (or, to be a "teacher of the right" way of life).
Paul says elder women are to be "teachers of the right" in the original Greek phrase "kalodidaskalos" Strong's 2567, a teacher of the right. He suggests they start with instructing the younger women, but he does not limit them to teaching only females!

He most certainly does: "let elder women teach the younger women." What NT verse specifically allows women to "teach" men:___________? You are arguing from non-existent Scripture. Silence does not override I Tim. 2, or I Cor. 14.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sir William Ramsey well known for his research into the history of Christianity in Asia Minor stated: ‘We should be ready to suspect Paul is making a quotation from the letter addressed to him by the Corinthians whenever he alludes to their knowledge, or when any statement stand in marked contrast either with the immediate context or with Paul’s known views.’ The Apostle didn’t say “don’t permit,” but “it is not permitted suggesting someone else was doing the forbidding. Then “it” would be the law since it is the law that (Talmud) that says women remain silent. Nowhere does the Bible say it is a shame for a woman to speak; therefore the “law” can’t be the Bible. The other law, the oral law of the Jews, specifically directed women to remain silent.
In conclusion Paul was paraphrasing the question posed to him not making a statement. And if we read verse 36-39 we see Paul’s answer to that ridiculous request.

“Was it from you that the word of God {first} went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize {this,} he is not recognized. Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”
To paraphrase these verses; Paul asked did God’s word come out only to men? That any man who thinks he is a prophet or spiritual must know that the things that Paul TAUGHT are the commands of the Lord. And that any man that did not recognize this was not recognized (spiritual). So he commended all brethren (mankind) to desire to prophesy (declare the word of God) and not to forbid anyone from speaking in tongues but to do so properly and in order.
These verses are Paul’s answer to the question of women speaking in church. Paul did not agree with that rule but rather renounced it and then explained what was proper and correct according to the Lord.
(ST.PAUL)

Entirely eisegesis & speculation unstated by the literal text of God's Word. The text stands as a positive witness against "women preachers" in the church.

Ramsey was trinitarian, will you also believe his doctrines in this regard? Why not?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

There are many instances of Paul praising women who teach the truth such as Priscilla, see Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3; Phoebe, a "diakonon" servant/minister in Romans 16:1, Junia in Romans 16:7, "outstanding among the apostles" Nympha, and "her house church"-- the only leader mentioned by name in Laodicea, Col. 4:15. Also Euodia and Syntyche who "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel" verbally wrestling with unbelievers, Phil. 4:1-3. He hails many other women as co-workers in Christ Jesus. If Paul had issued a blanket edict against all women teaching everywhere Paul would have reprimanded these women instead of praising them!

Have already dealt exhaustively w/ each of these so called "proofs" of NT women preachers. It's not at all clear whether Junia & Nympha [why didn't you quote from the KJV, or NKJV here?] were men or women, but the scales seem tipped toward men for Junia, since the noun is a 3rd declension masculine....not feminine.

Paul did not reprimand them because they were not NT women preachers in the church, especially since he's not even specifically addressing the ministry in the 1st place, as he was in I Tim. 2!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Paul's second recorded letter to Timothy, 2 Tim 2:2, states, "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable 'anthroopois' (men and women, Strong's 444-- defined by Thayer's Greek Definitions as 'a human being, whether male or female') who will also be qualified to teach others." If a person, male or female, is reliable, sound, qualified-- then Paul says he/she should teach others God's truth!

So you believe 2 Tim. 2 [though you violate context] & explain away I Tim. 2???? Why not just take God's Word at face value?

Honestly, I don't have the time anymore, I'm sticking w/ the Book............blessings

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

“Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (NIV, 1 Cor 14:1-5)

Have given the lexical definition of prophecy 'till I'm blue in the face, yet you plod along as if it's not there???

Besides, why don't you believe what he very plainly commands in the same Chp. in vs. 34????

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

just a few scattered thoughts...I am very busy this evening...from notes from different ones over the years)

sorry I cannot find Dr. Scheels book...He did say he would try to come here but Ihave not had time to talk with him any more..

Fine. I'll try to look in some time next week. But am growing weary w/ the same ol' stuff. There's sooooooooooooo much more to say about this subject, yet you just ignore the definitions, contexts, examples, etc. & plod along as if you don't see the plain evidence.

Busy next week, but will try to look in sometime...till then, be blessed!

[Sister Alvear]

we will just have to agree to disagree...we both just keep repeating ourselves...

Blessings to you and yours.