Tragedy of the Manipulated

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

WOW! Such a judgmental attitude! Kinda like the pharisees don't ya think?

We may think our own thoughts on the issues, I was trying to get the thoughts of the writer!

Could be, sorry if that sounded too jdgmental.

[MissBrattified]

I understand your point, but you are painting with a VERY broad brush. The goal should be to provoke people to self-evaluate; not urge them to critically assess the motives of others, past leaders, fellow Christians, whomever. ONLY GOD can truly know what is in the heart or mind of a man or woman, so we need to be cautious about calling our brothers and sisters in Christ master manipulators, aka, Hitlers.

I also object to the potential maligning of many missionaries who have gone to foreign countries NOT to indoctrinate or take advantage of those who are poor, uneducated or vulnerable, but for the sole purpose of sharing the precious Gospel and bringing hope to a hungry, hurting, dying world. Why? Because they TRULY answered the call of God, and because they TRULY cared for the lost.

I vote that you play this for everyone in your Bible study: (worth every second of the 35 minutes, and not for the faint of heart)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwbps9k5Dj0

[Michael The Disciple]

My first question to you would be this; How long have you been exposed to the Apostolic/Christian movement, and how familiar are you with historical research involving the Bible and past civilizations?

I have been an Apostolic believer since 1980 and have always loved history.

This is vital in gaining understanding about who we are, and what we do. Your experience by sitting in church, dealing with all of the problems we face, and building relationships with people and pastors will lead to a more honest conclusion. If you don't have this in your past, I don't expect you to understand now.

Well having been in Eldership for 12 years and dealing with problems and building relationships I dont come to the conclusion you do in comparing Pentecostal Christians to Adolf Hitler and Jim Jones.

An important friend told me once; Time is the greatest revelator. I would add to this, trials, marriage, failure, financial ruin, wealth, and most important, enduring these. To better know the human spirit, one must endure the seasons of life. If you've never sat under a Pastor who mis-led his entire congregation, your philosophy will be limited.

At 56 years of age and having received the Holy Spirit in 1974 I have had some trials and some enduring and some overcoming. I have sat under various Pastors who have misled the congregation.

None I repeat none of them suggested we should kill our enemies. That we should throw them to the concentration camps like you say in linking us to Hitler and Jim Jones.

I did give points in the message that refer to the Religious, gone mad. Crucifying Jesus was an experience of "Righteous" indignation in its darkest form. Those who crucified the Lord were well learned in Scripture, and held the highest degree of knowledge in Holy Writ. Beating Jesus, trading him for a murderer, pounding spikes into his hands and feet, and then glorifying this by putting him before the whole world was beyond extreme!

I also used the experience of Stephen. People who were supposed to be "Holy", gnawed on this man with their teeth, then took him out and stoned him! For what??? Preaching? You tell me this isn't as bad as a concentration camp! These people were enraged, and they thought they were RIGHT! Paul stood by and watched this whole thing. Then he went and threw people into prison.

I know you gave such points. Thats why I am challenging you on your premise. Name an Apostolic Pastor who has pounded nails into anyones hands and feet.

Name one that ordered the congregation to stone someone.

Now history DOES show religous leaders that have done these things. Your accusations were pointed to Oneness believers specifically so Im asking for names who have done this.

The minute we think we would never do this, is the minute we will. I've seen the darkest things done in Church, things I can't even mention in this post.

One day your eyes may be opened. When they are, I hope you remember this message, and that I will understand your tears.

Oh really? Well a minute has passed and I have no desire to burn anyone in ovens or put them in camps to starve or gas them to death. To make your post reality can you express the darkest things you saw in a Pentecostal Church that was like what Hitler did?

Did you see anyone put to death? Anyone stoned? Anyone starved? I doubt it.

You said one day my eyes may be opened but to what? When I see the works of Adolf Hitler manifest in Apostolic Churches I will certainly admit you gave a good post.

Perhaps you should consider this. One should study to show themselves approved unto God a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

Then when you hear some Pastor teach that we must pay tithes, shave our beard, wear long sleeves only and women never trim their hair we could simply if we choose find another Church or stay home until you find something with truth.

But forcing people who can know better to do certain standards (which Oneness Churches are guilty of) is far off from killing them and throwing them into prison. Even the most deceived Apostolic Pastors dont do these things.

Sure warn people to check their beliefs with scripture. Dont make your Pastor your god. But please dont compare these kind of things to the great mass murderer Adolf Hitler.

We have only ourselves to blame if we are manipulated by men to do contrary to Gods will. Hitlers victims were carried away by force of arms and executed without mercy.

Theres no comparison there.

The post drips with a spirit to cause confusion and doubt.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have been an Apostolic believer since 1980 and have always loved history.

Well having been in Eldership for 12 years and dealing with problems and building relationships I dont come to the conclusion you do in comparing Pentecostal Christians to Adolf Hitler and Jim Jones.

At 56 years of age and having received the Holy Spirit in 1974 I have had some trials and some enduring and some overcoming. I have sat under various Pastors who have misled the congregation.

None I repeat none of them suggested we should kill our enemies. That we should throw them to the concentration camps like you say in linking us to Hitler and Jim Jones.

I know you gave such points. Thats why I am challenging you on your premise. Name an Apostolic Pastor who has pounded nails into anyones hands and feet.

Name one that ordered the congregation to stone someone.

Now history DOES show religous leaders that have done these things. Your accusations were pointed to Oneness believers specifically so Im asking for names who have done this.

Oh really? Well a minute has passed and I have no desire to burn anyone in ovens or put them in camps to starve or gas them to death. To make your post reality can you express the darkest things you saw in a Pentecostal Church that was like what Hitler did?

Did you see anyone put to death? Anyone stoned? Anyone starved? I doubt it.

You said one day my eyes may be opened but to what? When I see the works of Adolf Hitler manifest in Apostolic Churches I will certainly admit you gave a good post.

Perhaps you should consider this. One should study to show themselves approved unto God a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

Then when you hear some Pastor teach that we must pay tithes, shave our beard, wear long sleeves only and women never trim their hair we could simply if we choose find another Church or stay home until you find something with truth.

But forcing people who can know better to do certain standards (which Oneness Churches are guilty of) is far off from killing them and throwing them into prison. Even the most deceived Apostolic Pastors dont do these things.

Sure warn people to check their beliefs with scripture. Dont make your Pastor your god. But please dont compare these kind of things to the great mass murderer Adolf Hitler.

We have only ourselves to blame if we are manipulated by men to do contrary to Gods will. Hitlers victims were carried away by force of arms and executed without mercy.

Theres no comparison there.

The post drips with a spirit to cause confusion and doubt.

Appreciate you clarifying your experience. That does help me in responding. I've been a Pastor for 13 years, and in the ministry for 15. Been in the Apostolic Movement for over 30 years. I'm not sure how involved you are with the political spectrum of the Oneness Church (Eldership is not an office or licensed position in our Organization), but there is much to be revealed that the laity knows nothing about.

I will say this. You vehemetly stand your ground, almost with border line anger that "drips" with fear. This is to be expected, when everything you've ever stood for is being challenged. I've done the same thing. To think, that for all these years, I have been possibly manipulated.

Have you researched the movement of Jim Jones? He was considered by many to be a Pentecostal. Over 900 people followed this man to a mass suicide. This is extreme, but did happen under the precipice of a man considered radical in his beliefs, using the Bible to convince his followers. His services were geared towards Faith Healings, singing, shouting, speaking in tongues, and preaching that some claim was mesmeric.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch30.htm

(This is a quote from the above link)

"Jones became a hit at Pentecostal gatherings at other churches, outshining other healers with his miracles, and he built for himself a reputation in Indiana Pentecostal circles. He left Somerset Methodist Church and started his own church in a run-down building that he rented. In 1956 he transferred his church to a better building, and he began calling his efforts a "movement," and his church he called the "People's Temple."

Now, to address our own. Are our people damaged, brain washed, or driven into a condemnation that torments, not delivers? Do we manipulate people into believing our way is right, and that all others who don't believe like us are going to HELL! (Brother, do you tell people they are going to Hell? If you do, do you explain to them what Hell is? What does Hell resemble to you? A concentration camp? A gas chamber? Worse?) What does burning in flames for Eternity feel like to you? God's mercy? God's love? Have you been in Church when "Hell Fire" is preached in dogmatic form?

Do you believe in HELL? (Just answer the question)

(Your quote) "None I repeat none of them suggested we should kill our enemies. That we should throw them to the concentration camps like you say in linking us to Hitler and Jim Jones."


Let me ask you another question. What is worse, being gassed to death, or molesting children? Are you aware that an Apostolic Pastor of 25 years in California was just arrested for this? People sat under this man under the complete trust that he was moral, loving the children in the church, not sexually abusing them. What will be the reprecussions of this (Families, local members, District officials, People in the community)? Was this Pastor manipulating his ONENESS congregation for all these years? Will the minds and hearts of these people forever be violated?

I recently went to a Ministerial retreat where a prominate speaker was invited. My wife and I had the privaledge of having breakfast with him. He is quite seasoned, and he began to share his life. His assitant of many years was found to be molesting his two sons. This man went to prison, but the damage was done. This man was trusted, taught, and held the Church in trust while this brother was traveling. You talk about damage, brother. Have you been molested? Do you know what pyscholigical damage this does? My wife was molested for 9 years by her father. I think she would have rather died than gone through that.

The first Church I was saved in fell completely apart. The Pastor used his platform of being the "Man of God" to grind his purpose. I was fortunate. I told my wife, we are leaving. The others that stayed were not so fortunate. When the Pastor was found in adultery, his marriage and the church fell to pieces. People scattered, as they found that thier trust in a man went too far. To this day, the devestation of this is beyond words. Broken families, confused saints, and trust that may never be regained. We just went to visit there and found the weight still heavy, even after 25 years. Revival turned into nothing but crushed human beings, lost on the sea of doubt.

Your comments about naming one church who has nailed someone to cross?? We do it all the time when we banish people from our churches because they stumble or go through a hard time. Do you believe the teachings of Scripture? If you hate your brother, you're a murderer! Just because it's not a physical act, the act of the heart is just as bad, if not worse. Pastors fight over saints all the time. They won't speak to each other because they are bitter. One conviction difference makes a Church "Backslid", and the radical pastor holding the charge won't let his saints fellowship with them. I'm sorry, but I'm sick of our gaming with people and playing them like pawns!

Brother, Adolf Hitler was just a Manipulator, nothing more. His extreme actions that followed just shows us what happens to those under this type of devious behaviour. It just so happens he slaughtered over 11 million innocent people and deceived an entire Country, not 900. Who knows how many we have slaughtered by our cynical, know it all, theological, Bible bashing, everyone else is lost, attitude. Sorry Brother, but something is wrong with this picture.

In my message, I pointed out this very important point. My wife was almost born in the Country of Germany. What if you were born there? Are you Patriotic to the USA? Do you love this Country and honor the Flag? If we were in Germany, we may have been at the mercy of this diabolical trait of being MANIPULATED.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Appreciate you clarifying your experience. That does help me in responding. I've been a Pastor for 13 years, and in the ministry for 15. Been in the Apostolic Movement for over 30 years. I'm not sure how involved you are with the political spectrum of the Oneness Church (Eldership is not an office or licensed position in our Organization), but there is much to be revealed that the laity knows nothing about.

I will say this. You vehemetly stand your ground, almost with border line anger that "drips" with fear. This is to be expected, when everything you've ever stood for is being challenged. I've done the same thing. To think, that for all these years, I have been possibly manipulated.

Have you researched the movement of Jim Jones? He was considered by many to be a Pentecostal. Over 900 people followed this man to a mass suicide. This is extreme, but did happen under the precipice of a man considered radical in his beliefs, using the Bible to convince his followers. His services were geared towards Faith Healings, singing, shouting, speaking in tongues, and preaching that some claim was mesmeric.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch30.htm

(This is a quote from the above link)

"Jones became a hit at Pentecostal gatherings at other churches, outshining other healers with his miracles, and he built for himself a reputation in Indiana Pentecostal circles. He left Somerset Methodist Church and started his own church in a run-down building that he rented. In 1956 he transferred his church to a better building, and he began calling his efforts a "movement," and his church he called the "People's Temple."

Now, to address our own. Are our people damaged, brain washed, or driven into a condemnation that torments, not delivers? Do we manipulate people into believing our way is right, and that all others who don't believe like us are going to HELL! (Brother, do you tell people they are going to Hell? If you do, do you explain to them what Hell is? What does Hell resemble to you? A concentration camp? A gas chamber? Worse?) What does burning in flames for Eternity feel like to you? God's mercy? God's love? Have you been in Church when "Hell Fire" is preached in dogmatic form?

Do you believe in HELL? (Just answer the question)

(Your quote) "None I repeat none of them suggested we should kill our enemies. That we should throw them to the concentration camps like you say in linking us to Hitler and Jim Jones."


Let me ask you another question. What is worse, being gassed to death, or molesting children? Are you aware that an Apostolic Pastor of 25 years in California was just arrested for this? People sat under this man under the complete trust that he was moral, loving the children in the church, not sexually abusing them. What will be the reprecussions of this (Families, local members, District officials, People in the community)? Was this Pastor manipulating his ONENESS congregation for all these years? Will the minds and hearts of these people forever be violated?

I recently went to a Ministerial retreat where a prominate speaker was invited. My wife and I had the privaledge of having breakfast with him. He is quite seasoned, and he began to share his life. His assitant of many years was found to be molesting his two sons. This man went to prison, but the damage was done. This man was trusted, taught, and held the Church in trust while this brother was traveling. You talk about damage, brother. Have you been molested? Do you know what pyscholigical damage this does? My wife was molested for 9 years by her father. I think she would have rather died than gone through that.

The first Church I was saved in fell completely apart. The Pastor used his platform of being the "Man of God" to grind his purpose. I was fortunate. I told my wife, we are leaving. The others that stayed were not so fortunate. When the Pastor was found in adultery, his marriage and the church fell to pieces. People scattered, as they found that thier trust in a man went too far. To this day, the devestation of this is beyond words. Broken families, confused saints, and trust that may never be regained. We just went to visit there and found the weight still heavy, even after 25 years. Revival turned into nothing but crushed human beings, lost on the sea of doubt.

Your comments about naming one church who has nailed someone to cross?? We do it all the time when we banish people from our churches because they stumble or go through a hard time. Do you believe the teachings of Scripture? If you hate your brother, you're a murderer! Just because it's not a physical act, the act of the heart is just as bad, if not worse. Pastors fight over saints all the time. They won't speak to each other because they are bitter. One conviction difference makes a Church "Backslid", and the radical pastor holding the charge won't let his saints fellowship with them. I'm sorry, but I'm sick of our gaming with people and playing them like pawns!

Brother, Adolf Hitler was just a Manipulator, nothing more. His extreme actions that followed just shows us what happens to those under this type of devious behaviour. It just so happens he slaughtered over 11 million innocent people and deceived an entire Country, not 900. Who knows how many we have slaughtered by our cynical, know it all, theological, Bible bashing, everyone else is lost, attitude. Sorry Brother, but something is wrong with this picture.

In my message, I pointed out this very important point. My wife was almost born in the Country of Germany. What if you were born there? Are you Patriotic to the USA? Do you love this Country and honor the Flag? If we were in Germany, we may have been at the mercy of this diabolical trait of being MANIPULATED.

Bro I understand just what you are saying, And I whole heartedly agree!!! I have come out of the same kind of beleif. Keep on letting God lead you.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I understand your point, but you are painting with a VERY broad brush. The goal should be to provoke people to self-evaluate; not urge them to critically assess the motives of others, past leaders, fellow Christians, whomever. ONLY GOD can truly know what is in the heart or mind of a man or woman, so we need to be cautious about calling our brothers and sisters in Christ master manipulators, aka, Hitlers.

I also object to the potential maligning of many missionaries who have gone to foreign countries NOT to indoctrinate or take advantage of those who are poor, uneducated or vulnerable, but for the sole purpose of sharing the precious Gospel and bringing hope to a hungry, hurting, dying world. Why? Because they TRULY answered the call of God, and because they TRULY cared for the lost.

I vote that you play this for everyone in your Bible study: (worth every second of the 35 minutes, and not for the faint of heart)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwbps9k5Dj0

PTL Sis,

Please don't consider my post as a Broad Brush, as to stero-type all who are Christians or Apostolics as mass manipulators. This was not my intent. Writing these posts, as you know, can only carry so much information. We get finished, hit "Submit", and hope for the best.

I never called anyone a "Hitler". I only used his example to show how powerful manipulation is, him bringing a Nation to its knees under a false pretense. Germany was full of good people, people like you and me, who loved their Country and thought Hitler brought hope to their despair. Even to this day, there are those who still may assess that Hitler was a type of "Savior", and deny the atrocities of his reign. We even have a movement in this Country that esteems Hitler, claiming his philosophy as being some kind of "answer".

The same with Jim Jones. This example hits a little closer to home, as he considered himself in alignment with Scripture, or Faith in God in Pentecostal form. I never called anyone in our movement a Jim Jones, only referring to him as someone who manipulated people in great degree, and that the potential is there for us to repeat this type of sway.

I don't know about you, but I see the tactic of manipulation all the time in our people, and I myself have manipulated others, thinking I was doing the right thing under the spell of my own will. This is where we have to be so careful. We ourselves can do it, under the "God told me" type of counsel.

Recently one the sisters in our church was hospitalized. She has been coming to our church for 2 years. She has a rare blood condition that is hereditary, and her white blood cell count was so low her blood would not clot. She had her spleen removed and was recovering. Her old pastor decided to pay her a visit and told her "bad things" happen to people who have left his church, referring to her desire to leave his controlling ministry. I was FURIOUS! This woman struggled after this visit. This mind game he played on her, tormented her, and I told her this was a very deceitful way to play on her emotions. This was one reason she left this "Apostolic" church. This was an Apostolic Assembly congregation, and I learned there is a lot of this type of manipulation amongst this hispanically based Organization. My daughter married a great man from this church who is Hispanic, and he has shared many things with me regarding this behavior amongst people who are prone to superstitions.

The Hispanic people are wonderful, faithful, loyal, and are so willing to assist when help is needed. Many of them come from poor backgrounds, adding to their simplistic lifestyle and ease of contentment. I must be careful to never take advantage of their superb nature to work hard and accept my word as being a word of “Authority”.

I have helped many of them to "see" beyond scare tactics, and to not assume something happened to them because sin is in their life. Trials happen, sickness happens, and not to worry that we all have stupid dreams that don't mean a thing.

My son in law has told me, who is from Mexico, people in his Country are VERY superstitious. They are easily swayed by manipulation, and this is dangerous to those willing to "Follow and Obey". This is why Missionaries must be careful. They will be in the midst of a very simple and willing people. They are tender in many respects, and see them as God’s special friend. Crossing the line of manipulating them can happen so easy, especially if the minister becomes offended or has been taught by men who are very authoritative.

God Bless

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Bro I understand just what you are saying, And I whole heartedly agree!!! I have come out of the same kind of beleif. Keep on letting God lead you.

Thanks, Brother. We musn't let fear guide the heart. Fear keeps us at bay, and in the harbor where everything is the same, and known. This trap keeps the mind and heart in the darkness of our limited surrounding and vain theory.

Set sail, and leave the gainsayers behind. Show them, the World is NOT flat!