How close should a pastor get to the members?

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I understand fully what he is saying.
Take the example of someone who loses a child/spouse. The last thing the grieving parent/spouse needs to hear is that it was somehow their fault for their loss -their "faith wasn't strong enough". I have seen or heard of this sort of advice given far too often. Or, to tie this into the magic hair thread, what about the pastor who proclaims misfortune the result of a wife's lovely locks being "shorn"?

Randy, again that's using nutjobs to base our argument on. I've never heard of that, and have been around Pentecost a long time. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but shows you how rare it is. Pastors should know how to handle grief: by showing comfort. There is a season to mourn and another to dance. If the pastor really feels bad things are happening to the family as a result of something not being right, they can deal with that through preaching, and at a much later time. Let the Spirit do the work. Can't speak for all situations. Another dig on Conservatives, as if they are the only classless breed of Christians. Awful.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

The church is not sufficient enough...that is why I went into counseling. Preachers/pastors/elders are not all in all...some have wisdom, some have knowledge; but Christ tells us in the New Testament to pray for understanding to go with knowledge and wisdom. This is much more important.

wow

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

Randy, again that's using nutjobs to base our argument on. I've never heard of that, and have been around Pentecost a long time. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but shows you how rare it is. Pastors should know how to handle grief: by showing comfort. There is a season to mourn and another to dance. If the pastor really feels bad things are happening to the family as a result of something not being right, they can deal with that through preaching, and at a much later time. Let the Spirit do the work. Can't speak for all situations. Another dig on Conservatives, as if they are the only classless breed of Christians. Awful.

I guess I have just been "lucky" enough to have run into my share then.
Now I do believe that this is not the norm, but I also feel (based on personal experience) that there are far too many giving this type of advice out.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Possibly, but forgiving AND forgetting are two very different things.

"Fool me one, shame on you.... fool me twice, shame on me" is an internal motto that nearly everyone lives by to one degree or another. When anyone suffers spiritual abuse of any kind the last thing someone wants is to fall right back into the same situation, and so we become ultra critical in many cases when it comes to trusting again. I grew up the same way -granted I was never married to a pastor, but I had one who felt he was the father figure over his sheep and acted with all the pomp and pageantry he could muster during a typical church service. Since I was living with my folks at the time as a young teen I had no say in anything.... now I am an adult I have a LOT of say in how I let myself be "led".

Have I forgiven him? Of course I have. In fact, if I met him again I can see having a very enjoyable evening together. I have even heard he has changed A LOT during the past 20 years.
But the experience has taught me valuable lessons as well as leaving some deep scars.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by aak1972

The pastors I know of have no formal training in counseling. There is a degree of tact that needs to be taken with anyone in a life altering situation. We dont need to go to someone and confide in them only to be blasted about sin in our life. Another example; if you were thinking about buying a new family vehicle and you asked you pastor for counsel on the matter and he told you to buy the 2009 Expedition. You do and 6 months later the thing turns out to be a lemon. Who will you blame? You know you will its human nature.

I understand what you are trying to say. We shouldn't need secular counselors. Our society today is very complex. The things we deal with are very complex.

Pastors are meant to lead the church as a whole. I don't know that the word says the one Pastor over a church is supposed to be the counselor for every member of the church. Being a Pastor does not necessarily qualify someone to give counsel in areas other than spiritual counseling. But if the church was full of honorable people you can trust, you should be able to find counsel in the church. The church is or should be full of a vast group of individuals with a lot of experience and wisdom to help others....

A Pastor can be a counselor like that but that is not necessarily what they are called to do as a Pastor nor does being a pastor necessarily give them all the answers to every little problem other than spiritual ones.

And frankly, if the Pastor is such a busy man, why not have others in the church that can do that kind of stuff to release the Pastor to doing other things?

In the church there should be elders to do this sort of thing, not just one man

Pro 11:14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

There are people in our midst that are more qualified to give answers to certain issues in life that might be just one Pastor...or that Pastor might be just as qualified, but I don't think it should all be put on one person alone especially when his calling is more to lead the church as a whole in spiritual matters and direction

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I understand what you are trying to say. We shouldn't need secular counselors. Our society today is very complex. The things we deal with are very complex.

Pastors are meant to lead the church as a whole. I don't know that the word says the one Pastor over a church is supposed to be the counselor for every member of the church. Being a Pastor does not necessarily qualify someone to give counsel in areas other than spiritual counseling. But if the church was full of honorable people you can trust, you should be able to find counsel in the church. The church is or should be full of a vast group of individuals with a lot of experience and wisdom to help others....

A Pastor can be a counselor like that but that is not necessarily what they are called to do as a Pastor nor does being a pastor necessarily give them all the answers to every little problem other than spiritual ones.

And frankly, if the Pastor is such a busy man, why not have others in the church that can do that kind of stuff to release the Pastor to doing other things?

In the church there should be elders to do this sort of thing, not just one man

Pro 11:14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

There are people in our midst that are more qualified to give answers to certain issues in life that might be just one Pastor...or that Pastor might be just as qualified, but I don't think it should all be put on one person alone especially when his calling is more to lead the church as a whole in spiritual matters and direction

Prax,

I think Pastors put themselves in the position to be the all knowing and only counsel. I think many times they think more highly of themselves than is their calling. They are not the voice of God but merely fallible men who are called to teach, preach, and exhort. Many times there is too much enmeshment of the Pastor/leadership into the private affairs of the church people. It is comparable to spiritual incest.

JMHO,
Rhoni

P.S. I do agree with your post. Thank you.

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Maple Leaf,

This is true. Pastors can/should only counsel in Biblical matters. Secularly trained counselors counsel in the gray areas that there is no particular scripture to apply, and there are many.

Respectfully,
Rhoni

I once had an interesting conversation with a trained counsellor. His candid analysis was that psychology was very good at defining problems, but deficient in providing solutions.

I have no problem at all in admitting that I run into people who definitely have problems that I can't adequately define. However, I am unwilling to concede to the Bible being deficient in providing principles to deal with the full scope of human maladies.

Here are a couple of areas that I think that professional counsellors are of value to God’s people:

• In helping to resolve personal disagreements between married couples. I do not want to know what goes on in the saint's bedrooms. Pastoring by its very nature involves a personal relationship, and there are just some things that need to be dealt with by somebody that the counselee only sees impersonally. The Bible provides principles that are adequate to deal with every bedroom problem, but if Bro. Bob likes to wear fishnet stockings on Friday evening, I don’t wanted to be assaulted with the image on Sunday morning. They can pay somebody big bucks to listen to their foibles, I’ll happily stay poor.
  
  
• In helping people over an extended period of time. There are people who have such deep wounds that they will require a lot of time over an extended time to heal. God is able to perform miracles of internal healing that are practically instantaneous, but just as with physical healing, some people’s faith just doesn’t receive instant healing and they must be nurtured until they are well. There are two reasons that this isn’t particularly fitted to a Pastor’s calling: The pastor/saint relationship that is by nature personal can too easily become inappropriate over an extended period of intense counselling; And, the sheer drain of carrying people for long periods of time can deplete the pastor until he doesn’t have adequate strength left for the more primary duties of ministry. Preaching and teaching are the pastor’s first and most important duty.

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Prax,

I think Pastors put themselves in the position to be the all knowing and only counsel. I think many times they think more highly of themselves than is their calling. They are not the voice of God but merely fallible men who are called to teach, preach, and exhort. Many times there is too much enmeshment of the Pastor/leadership into the private affairs of the church people. It is comparable to spiritual incest.

JMHO,
Rhoni

P.S. I do agree with your post. Thank you.

I'll have to take your word for it that this goes on. I've never seen it, but then again I live on the sane side of the 48th paralell.

The only purchase advice that a pastor ever gave me was once when my pastor helped me buy a used Remington 742 semi-automatic .308 with a nice Bushnell scope. I later sold it, but I shouldn't have; it was too nice a gun to be without.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

I once had an interesting conversation with a trained counsellor. His candid analysis was that psychology was very good at defining problems, but deficient in providing solutions.

I have no problem at all in admitting that I run into people who definitely have problems that I can't adequately define. However, I am unwilling to concede to the Bible being deficient in providing principles to deal with the full scope of human maladies.

Here are a couple of areas that I think that professional counsellors are of value to God’s people:

• In helping to resolve personal disagreements between married couples. I do not want to know what goes on in the saints bedrooms. Pastoring by its very nature involves a personal relationship, and there are just some things that need to be dealt with by somebody that the counselee only sees impersonally. The Bible provides principles that are adequate to deal with every bedroom problem, but if Bro. Bob likes to wear fishnet stockings on Friday evening, I don’t wanted to be assaulted with the image on Sunday morning. They can pay somebody big bucks to listen to their foibles, I’ll happily stay poor.
  
• In helping people over an extended period of time. There are people who have such deep wounds that they will require a lot of time over an extended time to heal. God is able to perform miracles of internal healing that are practically instantaneous, but just as with physical healing, some people’s faith just doesn’t receive instant healing and they must be nurtured until they are well. There are two reasons that this isn’t particularly fitted to a Pastor’s calling: The pastor/saint relationship that is by nature personal can too easily become inappropriate over an extended period of intense counselling; And, the sheer drain of carrying people for long periods of time can deplete the pastor until he doesn’t have adequate strength left for the more primary duties of ministry. Preaching and teaching are the pastor’s first and most important duty.

Maple Leaf,

Everything you have posted here - I thoroughly agree with! I went into Marriage and Family Therapy for the exact reasons. I do not like working with the chronically mentally ill, but those who need conflict resolution, developmental issues in dealing with teens, and marriage enrichment including pre-marital counseling. I do not believe psychology has many answers - I believe Christ is the answer for the world's problems. I do believe presentation as well as technique used, is everything.

Respectfully,
Rhoni

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

I once had an interesting conversation with a trained counsellor. His candid analysis was that psychology was very good at defining problems, but deficient in providing solutions.

I have no problem at all in admitting that I run into people who definitely have problems that I can't adequately define. However, I am unwilling to concede to the Bible being deficient in providing principles to deal with the full scope of human maladies.

Here are a couple of areas that I think that professional counsellors are of value to God’s people:

• In helping to resolve personal disagreements between married couples. I do not want to know what goes on in the saints bedrooms. Pastoring by its very nature involves a personal relationship, and there are just some things that need to be dealt with by somebody that the counselee only sees impersonally. The Bible provides principles that are adequate to deal with every bedroom problem, but if Bro. Bob likes to wear fishnet stockings on Friday evening, I don’t wanted to be assaulted with the image on Sunday morning. They can pay somebody big bucks to listen to their foibles, I’ll happily stay poor.
  
  
• In helping people over an extended period of time. There are people who have such deep wounds that they will require a lot of time over an extended time to heal. God is able to perform miracles of internal healing that are practically instantaneous, but just as with physical healing, some people’s faith just doesn’t receive instant healing and they must be nurtured until they are well. There are two reasons that this isn’t particularly fitted to a Pastor’s calling: The pastor/saint relationship that is by nature personal can too easily become inappropriate over an extended period of intense counselling; And, the sheer drain of carrying people for long periods of time can deplete the pastor until he doesn’t have adequate strength left for the more primary duties of ministry. Preaching and teaching are the pastor’s first and most important duty.

Exactly. And the pastors that pose to be "all knowing" I worry about. Most give themselves ulcers in trying to find God's wisdom about handling situations. They call other pastors. They talk to elders. They reference pastoral counseling handbooks. And most importantly, they pray, pray, pray. You could get a clinical response, or a prayed-upon, Word-of-God-backed, timely Word spoken in love.

Again, for clarification, this does not mean some situations could benefit from a session or two with professional counseling. I've dealt with a few myself. Unfortunately, the professional counselor was able to provide a temporary calm to the situation, but like the poster said, no solution.