How close should a pastor get to the members?

[OneAccord]

Just an observation from the cheap seats.

Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

This thread, like many good threads, started out well enough. But something went sour somewhere along the way. Not taking sides and not really caring whose at fault, I was thinking about the above verses. First the shepherd (and we know the pastor is a shepherd to the local flock) gives his life for the sheep. The sheep, in a very real sense, becomes his life. Why? Because unlike the hireling, the pastor cares for the sheep. He gives his life for the sheep. What this says to me is this: he is, by the very nature of his office, an example for the sheep. The hireling is not so. He merely tends for someones else's sheep. He's there for the paycheck. He's there for what he can get out of the deal, whether it is a paycheck, a nice home, or the highly desirable title of Pastor. To be sure, if he is hieling, he doesn't care for the sheep. He doesn't risk his lives for them, and, when trouble comes, where it be a literal wolf or a church conflict, what does the hireling do. "He fleeth..." . And thats the point I'm trying to get at. Pastors try to stem church conflicts before they can grow into full blown church wars. What I see here is some brethren who aren't giving their lives for the sheep. They aren't allowing their lives to be an example of what Christians are suppose to be. They have fled their very first pastoral responsibility: they aren't serving as examples to the flock. But, rather they have become the very thing they teach their sheep not to be: arguing, fussing and fighting Christians. They are showing us how God does not want us to be. So, does this make them pastors? or hirelings? They may have the title of Pastor. They may be excellent Bible teachers. But, at least for now, they are reduced to mere hirelings who are allowing the big bad wolf of contention and strife to roam freely among God's Sheep.

If you brethren would just stop a minute and re-read each others posts through Christian eyes and stop spoiling for a fight to "defend your cause", you'll discover what we in the cheap seats already know. You aren't as oppose to each others views as much as you think you are. You're just letting spiritual pride cloud your vision. Now in the words of Abraham: "Let there be no strife...between me and thee...for we be brethren".

Nobody wins arguments like this. Nobody. Everybody loses.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I seem to....what I am saying is we keep in perspective that the Pastor is still a man, like you and I. That a person becomes a Pastor does not change him as a man. That was the mistake the Roman Catholics made with the Pope. Many become disillusioned when they realize he was not fallable after all.

I never said the saints need to know what is in his closet



I disagree. I think what makes or breaks it is not whether someone is a pastor or not, for even having a friend that is a pastor can be problematic.

Let me ask, would you think it is ok for a pastor to have as a friend a non-pastor from another church since he is not leading him?

Prax, this isn't that deep. Do what you will as a Pastor. Are you a pastor?
I think leaders naturally tend to flock with other leaders. That's just how it is, and it doesn't stop at preaching. I don't think we are making anyone, at least in the Apostolic Church, a sacred cow like the Pope. We are honoring him. We are treating our man of God, as the Early Church would treat their Timothy, their Paul, their Peter. All "just men", but all in spirtual authority over me.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

Prax, this isn't that deep. Do what you will as a Pastor. Are you a pastor?
I think leaders naturally tend to flock with other leaders. That's just how it is, and it doesn't stop at preaching. I don't think we are making anyone, at least in the Apostolic Church, a sacred cow like the Pope. We are honoring him. We are treating our man of God, as the Early Church would treat their Timothy, their Paul, their Peter. All "just men", but all in spirtual authority over me.

The issue isn't whether they can or do "flock" with other pastors. The issue is how close should they get with members.

Last...I repeat I never questioned, doubted, argued against spiritual authority. That was never the issue.

[rgcraig]

The cheap seats have a good view!

Another "right on" post OA!

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Just an observation from the cheap seats.

Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

This thread, like many good threads, started out well enough. But something went sour somewhere along the way. Not taking sides and not really caring whose at fault, I was thnking about the above verses. First the shephed (and we know the pastor is a shepherd to the local flock) gives his life for the sheep. The sheep, in a very real sense, becomes his life. Why? Because unlike the hireling, the pastor cares for the sheep. He gives his life for the sheep. What this says to me is this: he is, by the very nature of his office, an example for the sheep. The hireling is not so. He merely tends for someones elses sheep. He's there for the paycheck. He's there for what he can get out of the deal, whether it is a paycheck, a nice home, or the highly desireable title of Pastor. To be sure, if he is hieling, he doesn't care for the sheep. He doesn't risk his lives for them, and, when trouble comes, where it be a literal wolf or a church conflict, what does the hireling do. "He fleeth..." . And thats the point I'm trying to get at. Pastors try to stem church conflicts before they can grow into full blown church wars. What I see here is some brethren who aren't giving their lives for the sheep. They aren't allowing their lives to be an example of what Christians are suppsose to be. They have fled their very first pastoral responsibilty: they aren't serving as examples to the flock. But, rather they have become the very thing they teach their sheep not to be: arguing, fussing and fighting Christians. They are showing us how God does not want us to be. So, does this make them pastors? or hirelings? They may have the title of Pastor. They may be excellent Bible teachers. But, at least for now, they are reduced to mere hirelings who are allowing the big bad wolf of contention and strife to roam freely among God's Sheep.

If you brethren would just stop a minute and re-read each others posts through Christian eyes and stop spoiling for a fight to "defend your cause", you'll discover what we in the cheap seats already know. You aren't as oppose to each others views as much as you think you are. You're just letting spiritual pride cloud your vision. Now in the words of Abraham: "Let ther be no strife...between me and thee...for we be brethren".

Nobody wins arguments like this. Nobody. Everybody loses.

Good stuff there. And people get angry with forums like JP? But good post. A Pastor has a pretty serious job description. Being "friendly" does not mean being "friends". But surely a Pastor should show the love of God and be willing to give his life. Not for "stupid sheep", but for God's heritage.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The issue isn't whether they can or do "flock" with other pastors. The issue is how close should they get with members.

Last...I repeat I never questioned, doubted, argued against spiritual authority. That was never the issue.

I'm just putting it into perspective. You seem to keep reacting like I'm attacking you. My answer to your question, is very close, just not entangled. The objective person has to be on the side lines sometimes.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

Good stuff there. And people get angry with forums like JP? But good post. A Pastor has a pretty serious job description. Being "friendly" does not mean being "friends". But surely a Pastor should show the love of God and be willing to give his life. Not for "stupid sheep", but for God's heritage.

See I would not argue with that. The only point here is how close can or should he get to the members? I never questioned the Pastors authority (as long as it is within what the bible gives)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

I'm just putting it into perspective. You seem to keep reacting like I'm attacking you. My answer to your question, is very close, just not entangled. The objective person has to be on the side lines sometimes.

Im not reacting like you are attacking me personally. Im reacting to what you say because you post it as though it is something I said or did not say or disagreed with and I want to repeat and make sure that in asserting something like Pastoral authority in response to my post, that I did not say anything questioning Pastoral authority.

See if you quote me or anyone else, then say something to that affect, the implication can be that the person you are quoting somewhere in his post or prior made such a statement.

You suggested I was an anarchist earlier. I never posted one thing remotely LIKE anarchism. I never denied church government or leadership. Im clarifying what I said. You posted something to the effect that "saints don't need to know all the dirt on the pastor"...to me...to my post...that suggests that somewhere along the way I said something like that and I did not.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See I would not argue with that. The only point here is how close can or should he get to the members? I never questioned the Pastors authority (as long as it is within what the bible gives)

Bible gives some pretty broad authority. But let's not go on a tangent. Pastor doesn't forgive your sins. Pastor doesn't tell you what to eat for breakfast. We know that.

You've gotten my opinion on the "should" matter. I shouldn't be calling my pastor "dude". Gives you an idea.

[rgcraig]

My dad was a good business man, well respected in the community, well respected in the church. All my life my dad was close to the pastors in our church - never by his design.

A good pastor recognizes who he can lean on, depend on and confide in. They were friends. Did it ever hurt the pastor/saint relationship that they were close.....never.

I think it's wrong to say that a pastor should NEVER get close to their members. You use wisdom.....

I was forunate to grow up in a church that functioned very healthy.........made for a strong pastor/membership relationship too.