How close should a pastor get to the members?

[2020Vision]

And pastor's should have a time when they are in the role of a sheep. It's about roles. It's not about vestiges or glory. Effectiveness within our roles.

[Pastor Keith]

Wow, what did I miss? Anyone need help on the subject of justification? Since that other thread got take over with it, maybe we can move over here.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Wow, what did I miss? Anyone need help on the subject of justification? Since that other thread got take over with it, maybe we can move over here.

Someone close the cabin door, a hijacker is on the plane!

[Pastor Keith]

I do though have some personal opinions about this, I have been burned to much, my wife said that I am to honest, to real and let some get close, and I have paid the price, terribly.

Sometimes when church troubles arise, I still feel that hurt.

But I do believe that you can't effectively disciple people from a distance. The determining factor is how close do you let some people get to you. Obviously the Lord allowed a devil to get to him, so we do have a role model that was successful and yet suffered loss and was hurt by that closeness.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

Someone close the cabin door, a hijacker is on the plane!

Be nice, I have been praying.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

Brother,
Your take has rubbed people wrong, not because I feel they want to "lord over anyone", but because it has an anarchist sound to it. I don't need to know all my Pastor's faults and fallibilities.

Please show me what in what I just posted expresses that? I never said I need to know anything, let alone ALL my pastors faults and fallibilities. HOwever one would be foolish to NOT know that Pastors are men like you and I and are not perfect. People that live like that I have seen backslide the moment a weakness of the Pastor is revealed.

It's that ignorance that allows him to lead me.

It's my knowledge that he is a man like you and I that allows me to follow him despite not being perfect and to defend him.

I willingly follow him knowing he is not perfect. I do not ignorantly follow him.

I see enough faults being in flesh, and a selfish, critical human at times. No matter what anyone says, you respect someone less the closer they get to you.

Not true. I have no respect or disrespect for someone I don't know. You respect an office. I respect the office and the man. I do so because I know him. Do you disrespect your friends?

It's not fantasy or idol worship, it's just reality. I want him to be the most effective.

I want him to be the most effective too...because the church needs it and because I love him.

And, I think this is a biblical model of leadership. The shepherd never gets down and acts like any of the sheep.

The problem with that analogy is actually the issue of this thread...sheep are stupid animals. There is a superior/inferior relationship there. I don't think that analogy was meant to be taken that far. Sheep don't some day become Shepherds...because they are animals. Yet saints can and do someday become Pastors. They become preachers and teachers and other things.

He's the shepherd. He sings to them. Talks to them. Walks with them. But he never makes himself a sheep. There is always a distinction and it need not rub anyone the wrong way. Pastors have accountability, and no, these should not be their buddies.

All shepherds started out as saints at one time or another...they had friends too. SO when they finally become a shepherd do they stop being friends to their former friends because they are "just sheep"?

The Pastor's friend can be another pastor, an evangelist, a teacher, a prophet, an apostle or just a holy ghost filled saint of God...but he, like all of us, should choose our friends wisely.

[Praxeas]

BTW there is NOTHING anarchist in what I have said. I never denied there should be any form of government,. I never denied we need Pastors and I have confirmed I have a Pastor. I accept whatever Pastoral duty I need from him. I never said anything contrary

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by keith4him

I do though have some personal opinions about this, I have been burned to much, my wife said that I am to honest, to real and let some get close, and I have paid the price, terribly.

Sometimes when church troubles arise, I still feel that hurt.

But I do believe that you can't effectively disciple people from a distance. The determining factor is how close do you let some people get to you. Obviously the Lord allowed a devil to get to him, so we do have a role model that was successful and yet suffered loss and was hurt by that closeness.

This is going to be true for all of us. I have been hurt by past friendships and even by ministerial actions...I got over it..You know if a friend does or says something you might not like it's easier to get over than someone that is not a friend, like the Pastor..

It's life. In fact the very fact that I realize the Pastor is someone fallible like me helps me NOT to become offended if he does or says something to me that is hurtful.

I think too though, close hands on pastoring only really works if the saints have been taught right, understanding the Pastor has a duty to perform but that he is human like you and I. Don't take it too personally.

Look...I've seen the bad in non-pastors and pastors and preachers and non preachers.. It's there. It happens. You can allow it to change your character and how you treat others, or you can brush it off and continue on.

Keith is right here...Jesus was our role model. He was close to not just the 12 Apostles but to others that were not Pastors or whatever..... I doubt after the Judas incident, if Jesus kept living on, he would have stopped being friends to those he was close to.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Please show me what in what I just posted expresses that? I never said I need to know anything, let alone ALL my pastors faults and fallibilities. HOwever one would be foolish to NOT know that Pastors are men like you and I and are not perfect. People that live like that I have seen backslide the moment a weakness of the Pastor is revealed.


It's my knowledge that he is a man like you and I that allows me to follow him despite not being perfect and to defend him.

I willingly follow him knowing he is not perfect. I do not ignorantly follow him.


Not true. I have no respect or disrespect for someone I don't know. You respect an office. I respect the office and the man. I do so because I know him. Do you disrespect your friends?


I want him to be the most effective too...because the church needs it and because I love him.


The problem with that analogy is actually the issue of this thread...sheep are stupid animals. There is a superior/inferior relationship there. I don't think that analogy was meant to be taken that far. Sheep don't some day become Shepherds...because they are animals. Yet saints can and do someday become Pastors. They become preachers and teachers and other things.



All shepherds started out as saints at one time or another...they had friends too. SO when they finally become a shepherd do they stop being friends to their former friends because they are "just sheep"?

The Pastor's friend can be another pastor, an evangelist, a teacher, a prophet, an apostle or just a holy ghost filled saint of God...but he, like all of us, should choose our friends wisely.

You've said a lot and I apologize in advance that I can't address all of this.
To be clear, I don't believe in "ignorantly" following anyone. When I used the word "ignorance", I was referring to my preference of being ignorant to my pastor's flaws, we notice enough of them as it is. It's like a dad that tells his kids every single gross tale of his sinful past. That's not my idea of child raising. Regarding the sheep, I think it's perhaps over-used, but nevertheless it's there in print. A beautiful analogy to me. I don't think people are dumb. I reject that notion. True sheep can be stupid, and we can be stupid sometimes too. We all can. Also, because I don't know him on a friendship level doesn't mean I don't know him. My pastor is a man of his word, cordial, patient, endearing, wise, longsuffering, bold, fearless, etc I know him very well. I respect him. There's no need for me to change that relationship because I fear he thinks he's better than me. He doesn't feel that way. But he embraces his role.

The Sons of Korah saw Moses was "just a man like they are too", and used that fact to feed a deep-seeded rebellion. Regarding friends as saints, I think we should stick to referencing those we lead. It's not being truthful to say it's easier to lead friends or family members. It's 10 times harder. Even in leadership at my level.

[2020Vision]

Prax, did you have prior issues with a former pastor, family member, etc? Or are you in a situation where you wish you were closer to your pastor? Curious.