Question

[the raven]

Originally Posted by stasis

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.

Cogent, concise, erudite and not fully accurate BUT the verses are very good!

Originally Posted by stasis

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.

Never heard it explained any better!

[U376977]

There you have it, this q. always turns into use of hundreds of scriptures and ideas (soldiers crucifying) arguing one way or the other.

BUT are the two mutually exclusive as first understood. Could there be some individuals who are predestined to fulfill their role (Judas, Peter) and others who have free will.

Let me ask the same q. another way.
Does Jn. 3:16 allow for “whosoever will” and Eph. 1:4, “chosen us in him,” speak to the predestined.

Originally Posted by U376977

There you have it, this q. always turns into use of hundreds of scriptures and ideas (soldiers crucifying) arguing one way or the other.

BUT are the two mutually exclusive as first understood. Could there be some individuals who are predestined to fulfill their role (Judas, Peter) and others who have free will.

Let me ask the same q. another way.
Does Jn. 3:16 allow for “whosoever will” and Eph. 1:4, “chosen us in him,” speak to the predestined.

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destined

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destined

It took me months and years to come to that conclusion. I read Calvin, Branham, others, as well as the other side. And whenever I hear people in this debate I always ask that question and it pretty much ends the discussion.
Right or wrong--it lets boths sides be right. How is that for the art of negotiation! LOL

Originally Posted by U376977

It took me months and years to come to that conclusion. I read Calvin, Branham, others, as well as the other side. And whenever I hear people in this debate I always ask that question and it pretty much ends the discussion.
Right or wrong--it lets boths sides be right. How is that for the art of negotiation! LOL

Without any snide remarks.. serious question.... Did you really listen to Bro. Branham on this issue? If so, this is exactly what he belived and preached.. did you come away with that?

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Without any snide remarks.. serious question.... Did you really listen to Bro. Branham on this issue? If so, this is exactly what he belived and preached.. did you come away with that?

Forgive me if my comments were taken as "snide." I would not be "snide" to you or in reference to Bro. Branham. But to answer your question...I did not "study" his teaching concerning this. I did hear some comments on the tapes now and then and I think I got a basic understanding of what he taught...I used to be on the mailing list and would get the sermon books and I was in a club type thing were I paid monthly and they would send me a batch of his tapes. I maybe have 150 or so of his tapes.

I was a busniess major in college, but my dorm was full of theo majors and we would talk for hours about doctrine. I have to give them some credit also....

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

There is so much to be said on this issue!

As Doc Brown once shouted out, "Marty! The future isn't set. It is whatever you make it out to be!", so goes our free will.
Of course, in another manner of speaking, the future IS set because God knows what we will be doing tomorrow and the next day, and the moment we die and of what cause.
In our fixed spot in our space-time continuum, I believe we can have both: Total free will and yet still be predestined to make certain choices and have certain things happen to us, which can only be known by someone looking from far FAR above our dimension.

There is so much more to be said on this. For instance in our own universe, when looking at matter at the quantum level we see particles that behave in a certain way based on our mere observation of them. Some see this as evidence of the existence of a multiverse where every possible outcome has already been calculated and happened.

Nice!

I think that our future is mapped out so to say, but I believe our free will can over ride it and change the future. God knows every move and step we take, but due to the fact He is all-knowing. But He allows us to make ur choices for outselves. IMO

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

So, where are we disagreeing?

Was God being true to his impartial nature when he ordered the killing of Amaleks babies?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destined

So do I, but I qualify it by saying they are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. IOW before creation God didn't arbitrarily pick and chose who He would justifiy and glorify but He saw the choices we made through our free will He gave us and then He predestined and then He created.