Gay people in Church

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.

At least this helps me to understand you a little better.


Yes.


Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.

The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.

The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.

I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.

How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?

I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.

Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.

You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:



Here is the trouble:

1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.

2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.

3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.

4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.

5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.


I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!

If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6

The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.


I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.

Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.

Excellent points.

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.

But no one here is saying to accept sin. What's being said is that if someone has come to faith in Christ then we are to receive that person as a brother or sister in Christ and NOT to treat them with suspicion and, thereby, holding them at arm's length.

At least this helps me to understand you a little better.

I doubt that very much.

Yes.

You really believe that we should all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)? Where does the Bible tell us to be suspicious of each other like this?

Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.

It sounds to me like in your little world there aren't very many homosexuals.

The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.

I sincerely doubt the veracity of what he is claiming.

The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.

No, homosexuals are not statistically more likely than heterosexuals to consider pedophilia. Homosexuals are homosexuals, not pedophiles. Heterosexuals are heterosexuals, not pedophiles. Pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction ("orientation") all by itself. As for the pederasty, I guess you've never heard of the numerous guys in their 20s (and some in their 30s) dating 15 and 16 year-old girls, eh?

I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.

I didn't call you evil! I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between saying that something you said was evil and saying you are evil. Read the statement again and notice the bolded parts: "No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them)." Now, show me how any of that says YOU are evil!

How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?

It isn't about proving a point. You clearly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to homosexuality.

I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.

This thread isn't about pedophiles, it's about homosexuals. If you want to talk about pedophiles, go start another thread!

Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.

I would expect someone who seems to think he knows what he's talking about to get it right!

You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:

Start a separate thread.

Here is the trouble:

1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.

There is no overlap. Homosexuality is not the same thing as pedophilia - neither is heterosexuality the same as pedophilia!

2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.

There is NEVER any justification for treating someone whom GOD has forgiven as if he is not forgiven - which is exactly what you're demanding we do. It's not your place to deny someone whom God has forgiven the place in the body of Christ that God has assigned. If you want to talk about protecting children, go start another thread!

3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.

Not relevant! If you're so interested in protecting children (I don't believe that you are, I think you're just spewing forth hate for a certain group of people), then you really need to be looking at the group that does the most molestations - FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS OF THE FAMILY!!!!!!

4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.

I'm just sick and tired of people like you who don't have a clue about homosexuality spewing forth this kind of garbage that ends up turning homosexuals away from Christ instead of to Christ.

5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.

More evidence that you don't know what you're talking about! You need to just butt out of this topic entirely and leave it to those of us who actually know more than just a little something about it. No one here is supporting "gay rights." This thread is about homosexuals who come into the church. What do we do with them? How are they to be treated? Your approach is clearly the kind of vile approach the Pharisees would have taken "Oh, no, they're homosexuals, we don't want those kind of people in our church." It's people like you who drive homosexuals who would otherwise be seeking healing of their unnatural attraction and victory over their sin out of the Church and into the waiting and welcoming arms of the gay rights activists and the so-called "gay churches."

I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!

Yes, I do mind because you don't know what you're talking about!

If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6

But if you were really interested in protecting children, you wouldn't be talking about homosexuals as if they were pedophiles (again, pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction all its own - pedophiles are pedophiles, not heterosexuals or homosexuals), you'd be talking about the family members and friends of families who do most of the molesting! You'd be trying to protect children from their families just as a precaution.

The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.

I don't give a rat's behind what the courts do! Again, most molestations are done by family members and friends of the family. The Church is in the business of bringing sinners to Christ - they won't come to Christ if you are pushing them away from Him!

I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.

Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.

Yes, you are in favor of ostracizing homosexuals just because you want everyone to automatically assume that homosexuals are really pedophiles and that they're going to be looking to molest children! Again, most of the people who molest children are members of the child's family or are friends of the child's family. Yet, you don't seem to be too concerned about them.

Let's get back to the topic of this thread and stay there!

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Subdued

I disagree.

I do too.

For instance, I love my son, but I don't trust him to be out at midnight on the streets.

I love my daughter, but I don't trust her with my money.

[OP_Carl]

I perceive there are some underlying fundamental differences that might prove difficult to reconcile.

1) You argue that watching our new brothers and sisters as they grow spiritually is treating them with suspicion, which adds up to segregation, treating the saved like they’re still sinners, and the sin of judgment in your book.

I’m sure gays are treated incorrectly in all kinds of churches. But it doesn’t happen with everybody, everywhere.

2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.

You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.

3) You prefer ad hominem arguments to ad hoc arguments.

This is always a losing strategy. Your presumption of my ignorance will be your downfall, debate-wise.

4) Here is the main problem: You are using the humanistic view of homosexuality, not the Apostolic view. Beneath it all, you have disassociated homosexual behavior from spiritual condition.

The Apostolic view is that all sin is a choice. There is no exception for homosexuality, that some people are born gay. It is the result of environment. That environment often includes some sort of sexual contact early in life, or very poor experiences in general with fathers/father figures.

Your approach is clearly the kind of vile approach the Pharisees would have taken "Oh, no, they're homosexuals, we don't want those kind of people in our church." It's people like you who drive homosexuals who would otherwise be seeking healing of their unnatural attraction and victory over their sin out of the Church and into the waiting and welcoming arms of the gay rights activists and the so-called "gay churches."

I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.

There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.

The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right?

Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?

From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.

From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.


I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?

Are you aware of Chan's background relating to homosexuality?

He's an authority and knows how to deal with those issues.

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I perceive there are some underlying fundamental differences that might prove difficult to reconcile.

1) You argue that watching our new brothers and sisters as they grow spiritually is treating them with suspicion, which adds up to segregation, treating the saved like they’re still sinners, and the sin of judgment in your book.

No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc.

I’m sure gays are treated incorrectly in all kinds of churches. But it doesn’t happen with everybody, everywhere.

I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right.

2) You vocally and repeatedly insist that homosexuality and child molesting are unrelated.

You are on very shaky ground here. The facts and statistics are in my favor.

Yes, they are entirely unrelated. Pedophilia (sexual/romantic attraction to prepubsecent children) is a sexual "orientation" all its own.

4) Here is the main problem: You are using the humanistic view of homosexuality, not the Apostolic view. Beneath it all, you have disassociated homosexual behavior from spiritual condition.

There is nothing in what I said that even remotely resembles "the humanistic view" of homosexuality (as if all humanists held the same view regarding homosexuality).

The Apostolic view is that all sin is a choice. There is no exception for homosexuality, that some people are born gay. It is the result of environment. That environment often includes some sort of sexual contact early in life, or very poor experiences in general with fathers/father figures.

No one here has said that sin was not a choice. Homosexual sin is a choice! Attraction (narrowly defined as the autonomic physical/emotional response to certain stimuli) is not a choice. But, of course, we're not talking about mere attraction here, we're talking about behavior.

I agree that homosexuals are driven away. But it’s not for the reason you think, because you neglect acknowledgement of the spiritual aspect of homosexuality.

There is a spirit (and I don’t mean a good spirit) associated with homosexuality. On countless occasions I have spiritually sensed a gay person before I saw them. I have observed gay people from outside a meeting room, behaving normally. When I enter the room, they become nervous, agitated, and uncomfortable. Are they uncomfortable because I’m there? I look like any other businessman. It’s because there exists a spirit of homosexuality. The spirit that accompanies them is uncomfortable with the presence of the Holy Ghost in me. I’ve seen this with and heard of this from many other Apostolics. Maybe some will chime in here.

NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me!

The notion that a preference or innate condition will spontaneously add to itself another preference or innate condition is surely hard to accept. But the notion that evil spirits will urge sinners to pursue more evil is Apostolic and abundantly evident. Evil spirits can throw people into a fire, right?

What are you talking about???? No one here said anything about an innate condition!

Gays, and especially gay activists, open themselves up to influence from these spirits. Why wouldn’t an evil spirit go out to the wilderness and gather seven more spirits?

Nonsense!

From a spiritual perspective, it is easily understandable that somebody that is open to the spirit of homosexuality will have a difficult time resisting other evil spirits, including the spirit of pedophilia.

Never mind the fact that most child molestations are committed by males against females. There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia.

From generic accounts of counselors, very few people limit themselves to only one type of sexual deviancy.

Generic accounts of "counselors"? Oh, so now you're promoting that psychology garbage! By the way, the same thing can be said of sexually deviant heterosexuals (e.g. those into BDSM, for example).

I do have a question. How is your approach to reaching out to homosexuals different from the approach of the gay activists themselves in recruiting young teens to their cause?

Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality. The unnatural attraction is not something one chooses. By asking your question, you again show that you really don't know what you're talking about. But let me indulge you here. Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin.

You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, I'm saying that watching people to see if they're going to fall and treating them in such a way that you're operating under the assumption that they're going to fall is treating them with suspicion, etc.

Well, I think I understand what you're railing against here. I would consider it a favor if you would briefly fill me in on the specific actions that fit into this category of treatment. Then, contrast what you consider the wrong way with what you specifically do that is different, and elaborate on the results you are seeing.

I'm sure others are too but that doesn't make it right.

Judgmentalism rears its ugly head in a variety of circumstances.

NONSENSE! I get so sick and tired of people like you saying there's a "spirit of homosexuality" or a "demon of lesbianism." By making such unbiblical statements, you are taking away from the person his or her accountability for the choice to act on the underlying abnormal attraction (an abnormal attraction that was caused during childhood). Don't you EVER try playing this "the devil made them do it" game with me!

The "nonsense" coming in to play here is your equating my statements regarding spiritual oppression and persuasion with outright demon possession. Your petulant demand is wasted. When people embrace sin of any type, they remove the spiritual protection of God, and are spiritually assaulted by the devil. Their own flesh will carry them quite a ways into the wilderness of sin, but the continued acceptance of sin gradually opens the door for the sinner to be influenced by evil spirits. This principle applies to many forms of sin, not just the sexual.

There is no SPIRIT of homosexuality or pedophilia.

Pretty tough to prove or disprove. I daresay we could entertain ourselves by polling Apostolic preachers about this one.

Gay activists do not RECRUIT people into homosexuality.

The ones I have known did.

Gay activists don't want homosexuals coming to Christ, seeking healing for their abnormal attraction, or gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin.

So, Chan, is there a spiritual aspect to gaining/maintaining victory over homosexual sin? Please describe it.

You really should leave this topic to those of us who actually know what we're talking about!

Since you know what we're talking about, and I don't, I would expect that, rather than attempt to suppress discussion, you would welcome it, so that you could persuade the uninformed and misinformed in a confident and expository manner, and so that there would be fewer of us that remain in ignorance.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have preached and worked with homosexuals hoping for the best. I just have not seen any change for good. But others have reported they have so I rejoice. The scriptures are clear they can be saved. I would attempt to see any one of them saved.

Bro. you must believe not only that it is possible, but that God will use you to minister to them. And that your ministry will be effective, your presentation (post on this thread) is full of doubt, and by your own words your efforts to date have been ineffective. Maybe an adjustment in you will bring a change in your results. Just my thoughts, may not apply to you at all.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. you must believe not only that it is possible, but that God will use you to minister to them. And that your ministry will be effective, your presentation (post on this thread) is full of doubt, and by your own words your efforts to date have been ineffective. Maybe an adjustment in you will bring a change in your results. Just my thoughts, may not apply to you at all.

I doubt he has had any dealings with homosexuals. I find it very doubtful that there is a closet in Indiana, and they are all lined up, walking out in an orderly fashion.

[berkeley]

[YT="Abomination"]1w3-tOfGEtA[/YT]