Gay people in Church

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

And use caution. Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them.

So, you're saying that they can never really be welcomed into the body of Christ? Where does the BIBLE say you have to do this? I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!

I agree that we should reach out to homosexuals, and that they can be saved.

I doubt that you agree because of what you said at the beginning of your post!

Adult homosexuality is largely the result of childhood sexual abuse.

Often, but not always.

Old patterns die hard.

Yes, and you obviously don't trust God to break the pattern. Another old pattern that dies hard is the sinful nature that every human has. Should we all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)?

The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people.

Many do present themselves that way, just as many heterosexuals do.

The truth is a little more seedy.

Just like for heterosexuals.

Homosexuals have a greater propensity for multiple partners and child predation than do heterosexuals.

What PROOF do you have of this? Where is the evidence that there are more children molested by adults of the same sex than by adults of the opposite sex? Also, if it's prepubescent children being molested then the perpetrators are not of either heterosexual or homosexual orientation, they are of pedophile orientation, meaning that they have a sexual/romantic attraction to prepubescent children.

I'm not making a blanket statement

No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them).

just suggesting there is greater risk.

Nonsense!!!! You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. NEITHER HETEROSEXUALS NOR HOMOSEXUALS ARE ATTRACTED TO PREPUBESCENT CHILDREN, PEDOPHILES ARE!!!!

The reason that the homosexuals coined the term 'homophobia' is so that we'll lower our guard to avoid appearing reactionary.

First of all, it isn't clear that they coined the phrase; it likely came from some psychologist (a practitioner of a particularly wicked worldly philosophy) and it was probably intended initially to describe people (heterosexuals in particular) who genuinely fear homosexuals or homosexuality but the leftists and the homosexual rights activists have taken the term and applied it to anyone who doesn't fully accept homosexuality as being essentially the same as heterosexuality.

Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.

Don't give me that "protecting the children" garbage!!!! You're basically saying that even though God forgives certain sinners we will continue to treat them as if they're still in their sin and as if God has not forgiven them! This attitude of yours is just plain evil because you slap God in the face and say to Him, "You can forgive anyone you want but don't expect us to treat them as forgiven."

Cross-dressers and transvestites, usually homosexual, present an especially pernicious problem. They might be dressed as a woman, or have the body of a woman, but there in the ladies room they are looking at your little daughter with a man's eyes. How are you going to deal with that?

Cross-dressers ARE transvestites! More proof that you don't know what you're talking about. And if it's a man dressed as a woman in the ladies room looking at someone's teen daughter with a man's eyes, the man is a heterosexual (like a great many cross-dressers).

Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?

Translation: it doesn't matter that God has forgiven their sin and started a healing work in them, our job is to treat them with contempt and suspicion, never really welcoming them into the body of Christ.

There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.

You do realize that this thread is about HOMOSEXUALS and NOT PEDOPHILES, don't you?

I know there is not a simple solution. But just as I believe that we shouldn't send children into physical battle in the U.S. Army, I believe that we shouldn't send children into spiritual battle either.

The solution is simple: repent of the wickedness that is in your heart, let God be God, and receive into His body those whom He has forgiven!

Originally Posted by H2H

Point well taken. That is why I am cautious of most everyone even those in church. I would be lying however if I would say I am not overly cautious with any known sexual deviants, homosexual or not, saved or unsaved. I know Chan will likely repromend my "bias in the body of Christ". That is something to consider too....


PS Sometimes you can tell the difference! Many of these wannabe-the-other-sexers have cheap surgens & poor quality hormone treatment... cause I can spot'um. Makes me wonder though - if there was some I did not spot.

Where does the Bible tell us to treat people with suspicion - particularly people whom God has forgiven? I'm sorry that you and others can't see the evil in your hearts when you go around refusing to truly receive into the body of Christ those whom Christ has forgiven. Did Jesus ever say to the woman caught in adultery, "I forgive you but I'm not going to trust you and I'm going to keep watching you to make sure you don't go back into adultery"? Are you aware that more child molestations are committed by men on little girls than by men on little boys? Are you aware that most molestations are committed by family members or friends of the family? Maybe you should be watching the parents and the cousins and the friends of the family instead of watching the occasional stranger who comes into your church seeking forgiveness for homosexual sin and healing from homosexual attraction (neither of which have anything to do with child molestation).

You and others here show your utter ignorance - first by denying the power of God, second by denying people that God forgave an equal place in the body of Christ with you (the sin of partiality), and third by confusing homosexuality with pedophilia, transvestitism (cross-dressing) and transsexuality (gender identity disorder - generally treated by trying to change the physical sex to match the sex the person thinks he or she is).

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I, too, don't trust church people in general, and I watch the SS kids like a hawk when I'm there!

Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?

As for spotting them, one still can't be too sure. I've seen some ugly women! I've also seen pretty men. I've also seen one or the other where I wasn't exactly sure what they were!

I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I will get executed I guess but this is a sincere question. I know from scripture that homosexuals can be saved(1Cor. 6:9-11) however has anyone ever known one changing and staying changed? I haven't I would just like to know if anyone personally knows of one changing and maintaining their 'straight' stance for a good period of time?? Again NOT saying it can't be done we have scripture 'where such were some of you.' Just asking for personal experience?

I have wondered the same thing Elder. I suspect that if it is so the reason that we don't know of it is because it is not the kind of thing that you stand and testify about.

"Bless God, God delivered me from ...."

The social stigma attached to it precludes a lot of people from testifying about it.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Chan

I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!

Oh for 100% sure God can change sinners, but He also allows sinners to do some changing of their own. If a sinner wants to change he/she can change, but God is not going to force the change if they are not sincere.

How is it you presume to judge the evil hearts in so many Christians that God has changed????

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Chan

Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?

I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - 13 (KJV) 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

How can you put out a brother that is acting wickedly if you don't know they are acting wickedly? Wouldn't you have to see their actions and judge them to be behaving wickedly?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Chan

Where does the BIBLE tell you it's okay to treat people with distrust (and, thus, suspicion)?

Chan, to quote you.....'show me where I said I treat people with distrust'.

I've also known heterosexual men who did cross-dressing as a form of sexual gratification. Who knows? One of them could show up in your church in female clothing.

I've seen worse!

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Chan, to quote you.....'show me where I said I treat people with distrust'.

It's in your statement, "I, too, don't trust church people in general."

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Oh for 100% sure God can change sinners, but He also allows sinners to do some changing of their own. If a sinner wants to change he/she can change, but God is not going to force the change if they are not sincere.

But it's not your place to treat anyone with suspicion! What's being suggested is that if someone has struggled with a certain sin, he is to automatically be treated with suspicion and we're to always hold that person's sin against him - as if to say "Even if God forgives you, the Church does not." And, yes, that is evil.

How is it you presume to judge the evil hearts in so many Christians that God has changed????

It is evil to treat those whom God has forgiven with suspicion as if God has not forgiven them and as if they have never repented of their sin (there would be no forgiveness if they hadn't repented).

Originally Posted by RevDWW

1 Corinthians 5:11 - 13 (KJV) 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

How can you put out a brother that is acting wickedly if you don't know they are acting wickedly? Wouldn't you have to see their actions and judge them to be behaving wickedly?

But we're not talking about people who ARE acting wickedly, we're talking about treating people with suspicion in case they act wickedly. I can't believe that you would interpret the passage you quoted to mean that we should be watching each other to see if we're acting wickedly. The context of the passage indicates that we would know whether someone was claiming to be a Christian but was living a sinful lifestyle.