Dead Sea Scroll translation

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Some of Christ's statements make little or no sense unless He was quoting the Greek scriptures. His argument against the Pharisees that they worship God in vain is directly from the Greek, not the Hebrew, as is His "perfected praise" quotation of the Psalm. These are not examples of the Gospel writer translating Aramaic into Greek, but are solid evidences that Jesus Himself knew the Greek version and used it in His preaching and apologetics.

Here is one:

Mar 4:12 KJV - (12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

That phrase is not in the MT, but neither in the LXX.

That phrase is in the Isaiah Targum. Check it out yourself: https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonat...h=all&lang2=en

[Esaias]

From Brenton's:

9Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive.

10For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 KJV
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So in Mark we have a variant rendering which according to what I have read agrees with the Chaldee paraphrase. So it seems either that Mark and/or Jesus was/were familiar with the Chaldee version, OR that Mark and/or Jesus interpreted healing as implying forgiveness, which was a common understanding among Jews.

But this doesn't prove that Jesus did not quote the Greek at times. In fact, Whiston demonstrates quite convincingly (though not entirely) that the common Received Text in the 1st century was a text that, while close to the Greek, also followed both the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Samaritan texts at various times, and even departed from all of them in some points.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From Brenton's:

9Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive.

10For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 KJV
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So in Mark we have a variant rendering which according to what I have read agrees with the Chaldee paraphrase. So it seems either that Mark and/or Jesus was/were familiar with the Chaldee version, OR that Mark and/or Jesus interpreted healing as implying forgiveness, which was a common understanding among Jews.

But this doesn't prove that Jesus did not quote the Greek at times. In fact, Whiston demonstrates quite convincingly (though not entirely) that the common Received Text in the 1st century was a text that, while close to the Greek, also followed both the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Samaritan texts at various times, and even departed from all of them in some points.

I watched most of a 2h interview of a PhD guy on the topic, and I have to say that I'm actually changing my mind. There are very strong evidences to believe the people in Palestine, even the lower class, where fluent in both Greek and Aramaic, possibly Greek was more dominant on the daily basis. Very interesting topic.

It is also noteworthy, that the Gospel writers quoted Jesus Aramaic's word verbatim and then translated it:

Mar 5:41 NKJV - (41) Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, "Talitha, cumi," which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
Mat 27:46 NKJV - (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
Mar 15:34 NKJV - (34) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
Jhn 1:42 NKJV - (42) And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).

That sends a message right there of pretty good reporting accuracy, even on the language.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But this doesn't prove that Jesus did not quote the Greek at times. In fact, Whiston demonstrates quite convincingly (though not entirely) that the common Received Text in the 1st century was a text that, while close to the Greek, also followed both the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Samaritan texts at various times, and even departed from all of them in some points.

The Whiston (translator of Josephus and five volumes on Primitive Christianity Reviv'd, friend of Isaac Newton) reference is:

An essay towards restoring the true text of the old testament; and for vindicating the citations made thence in the New Testament: To which is subjoined a large appendix (1722)
William Whiston (1667-1752)
https://books.google.com/books?id=y45AAAAAcAAJ

I think the comment is yours, not Brenton? I'm not taking a position, just checking a reference.

Here is Whiston's page on "The Lord hath reigned from the tree".
https://books.google.com/books?id=y45AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA147

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I have the Alfred Rahlfs, and the Brenton, and the Apostolic Bible Greek LXX manuscripts and their translations.

To his credit, Charles van der Poole of the Apostolic Polyglot Bible has been willing to write on the Sinaiticus fake (my word.)

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I have a hard time believing Jesus quoted something in Greek to the chief priests and scribes at the doors of Jerusalem, or to any Jewish crowd in Palestine.

Mat 27:46 KJV - (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Act 21:40 KJV - (40) And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto [them] in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:2 KJV - (2) (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 26:14 KJV - (14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

What likely happened was that the Gospel writer translated it from Aramaic to Greek, which in turn, attests the LXX "translation/interpretation" of the Hebrew text in that verse, or that the LXX has a variant reading we don't have, and it is what Matthew testified Jesus quoted.

Modern scholarship has caught up to the Authorized Version. Hebraisti does in fact mean Hebrew in the New Testament verses, not Aramaic as some translations mangle the text. Both languages were in use.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I didn't say that. Keep your laugh to yourself. "Translating" is not only from manuscript to manuscript, but in this case I'm obviously saying it is from Jesus spoken words to written Greek.

Correct.
What you said was clear (putting aside questions of Hebrew and Aramaic, which often share words.)

Originally Posted by coksiw

Well, it wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that Jesus spoke in Aramaic those words, and the Gospel writer translated it into Greek to write it on the Greek autograph. I'm not saying the Gospel was originally written in Aramaic (as some say).

Yes, what you wrote was clear.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Same thing goes for those who believe in an original Hebrew/Aramaic New Testament. There absolutely no Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts predating our original Greek manuscripts.

That is correct. However, it is quite possible that some books began in Hebrew or Aramaic or Latin, and were quickly translated to Greek. Hebrews is a good example, and Eusebius, working with material from Clement of Alexandria, talks about Luke being the translator from Paul.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

The Whiston (translator of Josephus and five volumes on Primitive Christianity Reviv'd, friend of Isaac Newton) reference is:

An essay towards restoring the true text of the old testament; and for vindicating the citations made thence in the New Testament: To which is subjoined a large appendix (1722)
William Whiston (1667-1752)
https://books.google.com/books?id=y45AAAAAcAAJ

Some notes on the Whiston work.

===================

"... William Whiston, who acknowledged the lack of abrogation between prophecies and fulfillments but charged that second-century Jews had deliberately changed the Hebrew Bible so that it would not match the New Testament."

"Perhaps No One General Answer Will Do": Cotton Mather's
Commentary On The Synoptic Gospels In "Biblia Americana"Commentary On The Synoptic Gospels In "Biblia Americana" (2018)
Grace Sara Harwood
https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/vie...t=english_diss

===================

"In the third part of his work he (Johann Gottlob Carpzov) endeavoured to prove this, in opposition to William Whiston, an Englishman, who, in an “Essay towards restoring the true Text of the Old Testament,” gave a decided preference to the Samaritan ltecension of the Pentateuch over tho Judajo-Masoretic version, and sought to prove that the Jews, in the controversy with the Christians in the second century after Christ, had falsified the manuscripts both of the Hebrew text and also of tho LXX."

An Introduction to the Old Testament, Volume 2 (1894)
Friedrich Bleek
https://books.google.com/books?id=kE9RNU3uajEC&pg=PA361

===================

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

The Whiston (translator of Josephus and five volumes on Primitive Christianity Reviv'd, friend of Isaac Newton) reference is:

An essay towards restoring the true text of the old testament; and for vindicating the citations made thence in the New Testament: To which is subjoined a large appendix (1722)
William Whiston (1667-1752)
https://books.google.com/books?id=y45AAAAAcAAJ

I think the comment is yours, not Brenton? I'm not taking a position, just checking a reference.

Here is Whiston's page on "The Lord hath reigned from the tree".
https://books.google.com/books?id=y45AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA147

My last paragraph was in reference to Whiston, I just quoted Brenton's Isaiah for reference to the two NT references. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.