The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

You say you want many, but our opinion of a Pastor seems very different. I'm saying you don't want a Pastor that can tell you what not to do. You don't want a Pastor that can set a standard over you and your family. You don't want a Pastor to submit your life to. You want a dozen men that don't receive their income from the church. Men too afraid to preach anything that will step on your toes. Who makes final decisions in that type of church? That is a train wreck. God's design has always been one man as his leader and authority over a congregation. Yes, have other elders and teachers in the church, but there can only be one Pastor or shepherd over the congregation. Your problem isn't tithing. Your problem is authority.

In answer to the question of authority. I would like to post a scripture. Is that permissible? I hope it doesn’t anger you, because it doesn’t seem to support your doctrine. Sorry.

Eph.5

[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Do you understand this headship to represent authority?

Just for good measure.

1Cor.11

[1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
[2] Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Paul says follow me as I follow Christ. Then Paul praises them for all of the consideration they have shown him in verse two.

Verse three begins with but.

But what? BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU TO KNOW, that the head of every man is Christ. Paul is describing the order of authority here.

I’m not sure if you know this, but I am a man. As such I am a part of the group he references as “every man”. So my head, (the one in authority over me) is Jesus. This seems to be in conflict with your doctrine.

Odd that Paul didn’t take the opportunity to remind them that he, or their current pastor/s were in authority over them.

Maybe he forgot?

Twice?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

This has conversation has been going on for a couple months. He is a saint in a church that I guess from what he posts, the Pastor doesn’t accept tithes. He may accept offerings, Tithemeister hasn’t said I believe on the offering part. Now, he says many pastors would be a blessing, its not biblical for one man to be the authority of a local assembly. He also clams tithing to a Pastor is not biblical and therefore we shouldnt do it. I’m a Pastor that believes the Pastor should be full time if he is able to, not because he is in debit and cant afford to.

Brother you say what you believe. And you tell what you think I believe. And you have said that you would like for me to respect your opinion, and you would respect mine. However, it is my opinion, that we should respect God’s opinion. If your opinion is supported by scripture, I should be happy to respect it. What is frustrating to me is that you have not posted scripture that says being a pastor entitles you to tithes. Instead you stand on your record. You paid tithes and offerings religiously for so many years.

Could you just post scripture showing that a pastor is or was ever entitled to tithes just because he is or was a pastor. Even in the Old Testament?

Is it asking too much for me to want doctrine to be supported by scripture?

Is that a bad thing?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

You say you want many, but our opinion of a Pastor seems very different. I'm saying you don't want a Pastor that can tell you what not to do. You don't want a Pastor that can set a standard over you and your family. You don't want a Pastor to submit your life to. You want a dozen men that don't receive their income from the church. Men too afraid to preach anything that will step on your toes. Who makes final decisions in that type of church? That is a train wreck. God's design has always been one man as his leader and authority over a congregation. Yes, have other elders and teachers in the church, but there can only be one Pastor or shepherd over the congregation. Your problem isn't tithing. Your problem is authority.

Brother, I am afraid you are accusing him of more than he had said. This is ad hominem, which is not the best thing to do.
There is at least one UPCI church I know of that advocates and practice plurality of elders at the same level (no senior head) and it works just fine. They have plenty of articles published of how to do it. No all the elders are full time employed by the church.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Brother, I am afraid you are accusing him of more than he had said. This is ad hominem, which is not the best thing to do.
There is at least one UPCI church I know of that advocates and practice plurality of elders at the same level (no senior head) and it works just fine. They have plenty of articles published of how to do it. No all the elders are full time employed by the church.

Interesting. I’m encouraged to hear this.

I didn’t realize Taking Dominion was a man. I wondered.

So brother TD, does your wife have authority over you?

Because that would be a similar situation as the pastor having authority over you in relation to Paul’s instruction. Both would be out of order. Unfortunately, both situations are all too common.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

In answer to the question of authority. I would like to post a scripture. Is that permissible? I hope it doesn’t anger you, because it doesn’t seem to support your doctrine. Sorry.

Eph.5

[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Do you understand this headship to represent authority?

Just for good measure.

1Cor.11

[1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
[2] Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Paul says follow me as I follow Christ. Then Paul praises them for all of the consideration they have shown him in verse two.

Verse three begins with but.

But what? BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU TO KNOW, that the head of every man is Christ. Paul is describing the order of authority here.

I’m not sure if you know this, but I am a man. As such I am a part of the group he references as “every man”. So my head, (the one in authority over me) is Jesus. This seems to be in conflict with your doctrine.

Odd that Paul didn’t take the opportunity to remind them that he, or their current pastor/s were in authority over them.

Maybe he forgot?

Twice?

What’s the role of the Pastor? From what you post now and what you have posted in the past, the Pastor...

Isn’t the authority of the local assembly
Should not accept tithe
Should have a job (full time) outside the church
Should be spending his time ministering to widows, orphans, and strangers
Giving monetary (tithe) donations to the widows, orphans, and strangers
Should introduce multiple Pastors to the congregation
Should have a Bishop or another to make sure he is not out of line
Is not a prophet
Is not a messenger of God

You posted there is a divide between the pulpit and the pew, and in some instances there is, Ive seen this first hand in my life. Yet, I believe the proof is in the pudding, I said for you to do this before and Ill say it again. You come on here and you post with “I’m not serious, I just want to prove you wrong with my knowledge” whether you mean to or not that’s how I take it. I’m not saying leave or stop posting, maybe tone back your cockiness just a bit.

Now, the church structure the way it is today has worked for several decades, I’m saved today by having one Pastor as the authority of the local congregation. I have paid tithe, offering, been submitted to the office of a Pastor while other offices have came through, I have received counsel from the Pastor, and was placed in the ministry with the understanding of authority. Has everything been roses and flowers, no sir but it worked. The Bible says....

Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

You can take this verse and say thats its only meaning is this certain way, I dont look at the word that way, there are meanings and things in this word that we haven’t scratched the service of. Anyways, If the current way of Pastors is not the will of God, God will step in and stop it. If saints are hurt by a Pastor having too much authority it will stop in its tracks, I can say this I know this from first hand experience. You come against tithing, Pastors in a rebellion type way, if its right your fighting against God. It has worked for many years, could there changes yes sir, Ill be the first to pray for God to change me so I can become a better leader.

Now, if your assembly operates like you post, fine Ive never seen a congregation operate like that. But if it doesn’t, then go and ask God to give you burden for a city and show the rest of us how to build a church for God, using what you believe to be true. If its of God, I will not fight against it, if its not, there will not be anything to fight against.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother you say what you believe. And you tell what you think I believe. And you have said that you would like for me to respect your opinion, and you would respect mine. However, it is my opinion, that we should respect God’s opinion. If your opinion is supported by scripture, I should be happy to respect it. What is frustrating to me is that you have not posted scripture that says being a pastor entitles you to tithes. Instead you stand on your record. You paid tithes and offerings religiously for so many years.

Could you just post scripture showing that a pastor is or was ever entitled to tithes just because he is or was a pastor. Even in the Old Testament?

Is it asking too much for me to want doctrine to be supported by scripture?

Is that a bad thing?

I have posted scriptures on tithe before with you. This isn’t the first time we have gone through this. Your a hard person to have a conversation with, your the type that would condemn a person for praying for someone to receive the Holy Ghost because the Bible doesn’t give us the words how to pray for them. We cannot be lead the spirit without the Bible expressly saying it verbatim. You live to the letter of the law, the letter kills and thats what your post are like to read. There is no understanding, your trying to be the most knowledgeable, and go ahead your very skillful in words, I’m not, I’m just a simple country preacher. All I can say is, you better live what you post or preach, you better not be condemning men and then living another way from what you preach. The Pharisees would place burdens on souls, then they themselves would not bare. God is not mocked what ye sow you will reap.

[coksiw]

Iglesia Evangelica Gentil de Cristo, is an apostolic pentecostal church with its origins in Mexico. They are expanding in Mexico and they are also starting works in the USA.
They believe in oneness, acts 2:38, and holiness. They preach free-will giving and I have seen messages from there against tithing wages as modern church do, and they are growing, and are incorporated, and have building, and pastors, and having a great membership in my town. I have friends that go there. I do not know their polity structure, though.

If there is a will, there is a way, the same way the church did it with free-will giving until the year 487. It takes a leap of faith to drop tithing. And not only faith, but also courage to accept that the UPCI (if you are with them) will take your license and kick you out if you stopped preaching and believing in tithing.

[coksiw]

It is OK to deliberate with a council of wise, Spirit-filled elders. Isn't that what the UPCI do anyways in their General Conference?

Here is an example from the scripture of a group deliberating about doctrinal issues:

[Act 15:6-7, 23, 28 NKJV] 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. ... 23 They wrote this [letter] by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. ... 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

Those cases are actually rare. Local assembly business issues, don't you do those already with more than one person anyways? trustees?
Standard issues, how often do you have to deliberate about those, really?
Most of the time, the team is more about sharing the load than about deliberating.

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Allow me to break it down for you. Let’s get away from pastors, and substitute singers instead. (There are actually verses that support singers receiving tithes, unlike pastors.) So, if we were tithing to singers, we probably couldn’t afford a choir. But since we don’t typically do so, many churches have a choir loft full of singers. If you want to see the singers in a church diminish down to, say one, reinstate the doctrine of tithing to singers. As it is, most singers/choir members aren’t paid to sing. So most churches have plenty of singers.

What part doesn’t make sense?

Okay I get your point, but that's not how it works. I'm sure you realize that. Your arguments are ludicrous. The tithe is used at the Pastor's discretion. If he has an assistant, and wants to pay his assistant out of the tithe, it is within his discretion to do so. If he wants to pay the evangelist out of the tithe, that is also his choice. Even in tithing churches with multiple "pastors", not every "pastor" receives 10%. I'm sure you know that.

Bottom line, you want no real pastor but many mini pastors living on little income.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I have posted scriptures on tithe before with you. This isn’t the first time we have gone through this. Your a hard person to have a conversation with, your the type that would condemn a person for praying for someone to receive the Holy Ghost because the Bible doesn’t give us the words how to pray for them. We cannot be lead the spirit without the Bible expressly saying it verbatim. You live to the letter of the law, the letter kills and thats what your post are like to read. There is no understanding, your trying to be the most knowledgeable, and go ahead your very skillful in words, I’m not, I’m just a simple country preacher. All I can say is, you better live what you post or preach, you better not be condemning men and then living another way from what you preach. The Pharisees would place burdens on souls, then they themselves would not bare. God is not mocked what ye sow you will reap.

Brother,

I just don’t know what to say. The spirit or attitude that seems to be behind your posts bothers me. I sincerely apologize if I come across as cocky, brash, condescending etc.. I honestly have had some of these thoughts about you as well.

But, I also have a feeling that if we got together, we would have a wonderful time. I don’t believe we would fuss about everything. We probably would be great friends as well as brothers. I obviously need to dial it back. I’m not going to apologize for what I believe, but I will apologize for my delivery, sincerely. Brother, I believed essentially what you do at one point. So I understand where you’re coming from. But as I studied the Bible, I saw that my beliefs didn’t align with scripture. I was wrong. So I changed my belief. But I don’t want to be cocky and all that.

I must admit that your insinuation that I am “conceded” because of my high education bothered me, and it also amused me. I can assure you that I am not highly educated, and that my education is certainly no reason for me to be conceited. I suspect that you don’t have any reason to be concerned either, along those lines. But I apologize for being perceived as conceited and condescending. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let the person take heed.

Now, maybe we could get together and shoot ducts or something?

By the way, just wondering if you actually eat those things? I’m not a duck hunter, but I know some who are, and it seems to me that they love to shoot ducks, and they will put them in the freezer, but they dread eating them?

I do have a recipe for duck that’s not too bad.

Anyway brother, sincere apologies. I’ll try to do better.