Why Sunday

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I understand I’m getting into this discussion late, so forgive me.

I’m not against anyone wanting to take certain days off for rest. And I agree with you Esaias as far as Jesus wanting to regulate our physical work, yet probably not in the sense you or I am meaning.

I’m putting this out there cause there maybe something I’m missing. Why did God give them the sabbath? I’m paraphrasing for space, God told them not to work, don’t gather food, don’t get your farm animals etc why? What’s the big deal with gathering food, or working, they do that the other days of the week. I believe, they just came from Egypt the place of bondage, the place where there was no rest, for over 400 years they were slaves. It’s a type and shadow for us, as we were slaves to sin we now have rest in the Holy Ghost our rest. He gave the sabbath as a reward, what’s our reward? I see the Old Covenant as our Old man, the New Covenant is our spiritual man.

Also...

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Is now

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.


Matthew 5:21-23
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;


Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.



Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


These are just a few examples we can go on and see where Jesus fulfilled what the law lacked. The law does not save us, the law allowed us to see who we are, sinners! Jesus told the religious order because the hardness of your heart Moses said to...

If your remembering the sabbath as a physical day that’s fine, yet don’t forget its the Holy Ghost.

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Our rest comes from the Holy Ghost. Many people especially in the church will sleep 8 -10 hours and wake up and felt like they slept 10 minutes, they have no rest. You can be at home and do no work and just rest all day, yet your weary? You can go fishing, hiking, hunting and you’ll find no rest. The only way your physical man will have rest is when your spiritual man is at rest. When your spirit is entangled there is no rest for the physical man, it doesn’t matter friend how many days you take off. Our rest is the Holy Ghost.

People are sleeping while you preach? 8-10 hours? That is some sermon bro.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Circumcision?

Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised under the law unless they wanted to eat the passover lamb. So there is no "we don't have to be circumcised now" as if you had to be circumcised previously.

That is incorrect. Circumcision allowed them into the worship rites of the Old Covenant. They were not allowed IN THE CAMP so to speak, without it.

A gentile could only be like one born of the land if they were circumcised. It was part of becoming an Israelite and joining the commonwealth of Israel, as was it not?..

Exodus 12:48.. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


It put people under all the rites and ceremonies of Law. Those who refused to be circumcised denied all idolatry and lived more or less under NOAHIDE LAW.

God gave circumcision to Abraham as a token of the covenant. The New Testament shows us how highly vital circumcision was under law by saying that its counterpart, Baptism, cuts away the body of sins of the flesh and rings us into resurrection with Christ. It was a hidden physical cutting in flesh to show the circumcision God wants inwardly. What state we would stand in if we're not baptized is the counterpart state someone would stand in as far as Old Covenant goes through the physical ceremony. How important is that?

Before Law, God said...

Genesis 17:14.. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

It is for that reason that Gal 5 speaks of circumcision, since it was the entrance rite to the Old Covenant.

Galatians 5:2-3.. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. ..(3).. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

It's why Romans 4 talks about when circumcision occurred with Arbaahm to determine the value of faith in contrast to that rite, as it asked us when Abraham was made righteous. It was the single-most symbol of LAW-keeping. We even see that Israel was called the circumcision, embodying the whole concept of Old Covenant living.

Romans 4:9-12.. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. ..(10).. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. ..(11).. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: ..(12).. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

This is far more than just a ticket to partake of Passover.

If you were an Israelite under the old covenant? Yes you had to be circumcised. If you were not under the old covenant? No you did not have to be circumcised (unless you wanted to participate fully in the passover meal).

Fully in all the ordinances and rites, you mean.

Although you DO have to be circumcised to eat the new covenant Passiver lamb, which is Jesus Himself. You must be circumcised inwardly, in the heart. Otherwise you can't eat Christ's flesh. That is, His death won't do you much good unless your heart is circumcised.

By extrapolating back into the purpose or circumcision under Law, showing the foreshadowing element, one had to be circumcised under Moses in order to partake of the full old covenant.

What happens when the heart is circumcised?

Deuteronomy 30:6-8 KJV
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord , and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Jeremiah 4:1-4,7 KJV
If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord , return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. [2] And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. [3] For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. [4] Circumcise yourselves to the Lord , and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it , because of the evil of your doings. [7] The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

Colossians 2:10-11 KJV
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Romans 2:21-29 KJV
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? [22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

These passages make it abundantly clear that heart circumcision simply means God causing a person to faithfully obey His commandments out of love. Nothing in these passages, least of all the one from Romans, indicates the 4th commandment is excepted or abrogated or otherwise not a part of that obedience.

Circumcision was not introduced to show that we can abrogate moral laws. IT was to show that there is a natural shadow that is fulfilled spiritually, as sabbath is distinctly called a shadow. It could not be more plain if one went by the bible alone.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I understand I’m getting into this discussion late, so forgive me.

I’m not against anyone wanting to take certain days off for rest. And I agree with you Esaias as far as Jesus wanting to regulate our physical work, yet probably not in the sense you or I am meaning.

I’m putting this out there cause there maybe something I’m missing. Why did God give them the sabbath? I’m paraphrasing for space, God told them not to work, don’t gather food, don’t get your farm animals etc why? What’s the big deal with gathering food, or working, they do that the other days of the week. I believe, they just came from Egypt the place of bondage, the place where there was no rest, for over 400 years they were slaves. It’s a type and shadow for us, as we were slaves to sin we now have rest in the Holy Ghost our rest. He gave the sabbath as a reward, what’s our reward? I see the Old Covenant as our Old man, the New Covenant is our spiritual man.

Also...

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Is now

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.


Matthew 5:21-23
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;


Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.



Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


These are just a few examples we can go on and see where Jesus fulfilled what the law lacked. The law does not save us, the law allowed us to see who we are, sinners! Jesus told the religious order because the hardness of your heart Moses said to...

If your remembering the sabbath as a physical day that’s fine, yet don’t forget its the Holy Ghost.

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Our rest comes from the Holy Ghost. Many people especially in the church will sleep 8 -10 hours and wake up and felt like they slept 10 minutes, they have no rest. You can be at home and do no work and just rest all day, yet your weary? You can go fishing, hiking, hunting and you’ll find no rest. The only way your physical man will have rest is when your spiritual man is at rest. When your spirit is entangled there is no rest for the physical man, it doesn’t matter friend how many days you take off. Our rest is the Holy Ghost.

While I agree that receiving and living in the Spirit is the cause of our spiritual rest from dead works, I would like to point out that, in regards to Isaiah 28:11-12, the Hebrew words translated "rest" are not shabbat in verse 12, but rather, it is first, הַמְּנוּחָה֙, or hammenūḥāh, from the word menuchah, the feminine form of the name Manoah (as in the father of Samson), then secondly הָנִ֣יחוּ, or hā·nî·ḥū, from the word nuach.

See here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/28-12.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4496.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5117.htm

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It seems to me that you are assuming the 4th commandment is amoral, which is also the conclusion of your argument. That's basically a begging of the question (it looks like you begin with the 4th commandment is amoral, then reason to a conclusion that it is amoral and therefore non obligatory).

I already said it over and over again that keeping a specific seventh day is a far cry from the mere thought of resting one or two days (who said it has to be one)? Ther eis nothing moral about ensuring the seventh day is the one to rest. Rest itself is not even really that oral. It's just common sense. You seem to keep saying that it is moral to rest. how? You explain that the morality is seen when an employer refuses to let us employees rest for a single day, and how he needs to allow that morally. That is aside from the overall point of rest, though. Resting is physically necessary, and any moral concept is subservient to that.

The seventh day resting is only involved under Law because it's a memorial of old creation when God rested after He created for 6 days. And I do stress old creation. Natural creation. Genesis 1-2 is written the way that it is, with the sequence of events happening as they did, and the timeframe God chose to do the specific acts in those periods in the sequence and manner that he did them, in order to pattern out NEW CREATION. He could have created all without a word and in a single second, let alone seven days in a certain sequence!

I have seen more parallels and shadows in Genesis 1-2 more than any other account in the entire Bible! The very start with darkness covering a planet with nothing but water over it, without form and void, and God speaking light is exactly what Paul showed to be the shadow of speaking into our hearts the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus. The third day with its rising up from beneath the water, not a "creation" of land, with the first from of non-animate life, shows resurrection. the dividing of waters on day two shows baptism, which is so significant when comparing the Exodus out of Egypt when the Old Covenant owuld occur.

The pillar of God separated the Egyptians from the Israelites causing light to be se[arated from darkness, as day one of Genesis saw. Our sins are separate from us by repentance when light of truth comes. And the second day divided the waters, and the same term is used in Exodus where the waters were divided so that the "darkness" of the Egyptians, representing our tormenting sins, would not only be separated, but washed away! This shows the difference between repentance and baptism.

Then the dry land rising shows resurrection and the new life after leaving bondage and darkness. And it goes on toward the making of a man in God's image.

This is an example of the awesome shadowing that the Lord did in everything from creation to the natural emphasis in the Old Covenant. It's all about natural versus spiritual.

Morality never changes. But resting specificially on a seventh day, not the 3rd or 5th, is ceremonial. It is ordinancial. For goodness' sake, Paul said it's shadow.

The New Covenant is in no way a including shadows. It's the whole body of everything Christ is and does. And it is eternal, not 24-hours.

Circumcision was like that. Each of the feasts were like that. ANd we do NOT keep passover feast in the way you might think, with actual, on-the-same-day rituas of certain foods, for Christ is our passover. And the leaven we remove from the bread is the malice and wickedness in our hearts, not natural and physica leaven. The wsay Paul meant for us to keep passover is not by naturally keeping the natural elements involved the ritual, but taking each element and seeing the spiritual counterpart and doing IT INSTEAD OF, not WITH, the natural manner.

On the ceremonial side, anointing with oil and laying on of hands were "ceremonial" acts under the old covenant (and prior, as well), yet under the new covenant there is anointing with oil and laying on of hands. There were washings under the old covenant, and a washing in the new (a real actual ceremonial washing, called baptism, and another for those who believe in and practice footwashing). Many actions that were spelled out under the old covenant continue under the new, with a fuller Christological meaning and purpose. Where that new meaning also creates a new methodology is clearly spelled out in the NT writings and also blatantly addressed in the OT writings (such as the transition of the liturgy from Levitical methodology to Melchezedek/Davidic/Christian methodology, especially as regards sacrifice nd offerings, the priesthood, etc). The prohibition against graven images is all about ceremonial ritual actions (venerating religious imagery, etc). The prohibition against taking the Lord's name in vain has its primary and immediate purpose to regulate the swearing of religious oaths - a formal ceremonial action.

So we see that several of the ten commandments contain liturgical, ceremonial elements which are inseperably bound to their moral content.

No, they are not inseparably bound per se, except in the list of commandemnts,

And like I already asked, who is to say the Ten Commandments are a body that do not include rituals that are inseparably bound to us today if we know we need to keep the moral aspects of that list? Who said that if you believe murder is wrong and must never think to do it, let alone act upon it, that all of the ceremonial aspects involved in the entire list must be also kept, as though it's a package deal and you cannot be moral without being ceremonial? Who said that each commandment was like circumcision, that if you take one you are bound to keep the whole ten? When did the list of the Ten become a do them all or violate them all thing?

Who said that the list cannot contain things meant to be fulfilled and done away with for the antitype and body of the shadow to bring us into the more full version, while abandoning the shadow?

What is this clinging to the natural, where the shadow, even known to be a shadow(!!), is not meant to give way to the spiritual? You agreed that New Jerusalem is not a natural city, so you do not go to natural Jerusalem to keep those feasts. By the same token, 7th DAY sabbath is a natural shadow of ceasing from natural activities, using a very necessary rest from physical work but adding a ceremonial aspect to a specific and certain day that disallows the thought of any other day, that leads us to understand like an ELEMENT OF THE NATURAL WORLD and natural doing or not doing to show us and mean for us to engage in a spiritual rest in his priesthood by coming to his throne of mercy for grace to help in the time of need.

It's like saying I have to physically be circumcised in order to let God spiritually circumcise my heart!

Paul said it's being weak in faith, because the flesh wants to walk by sight. We have to physically do something or else we cannot be confident. Romans 14 was not about days of fasting, nut holy time periods like a holy DAY that is in itself contrasted from other days just by being the day of the week God rested. The placement of the sabbath on the distinct seventh day is CEREMONIAL and a shadow. Paul said the stronger ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and tolerate their natural insistence on elements of the natural world's realm of physically doing and not physically doing, while insisting those brethren cannot stand on faith alone. They are weak. Being weak like that is somehow linked with being easily offended. We ought to mature beyond ceremony of natural things.

It is IMMORAL to genuflect before images, even though such is a purely ceremonial act. Why is it immoral? Because it is immoral to disobey God.

It's also amoral because it accomplishes nothing spiritually.

Dividing commands into moral versus ceremonial or non moral is an unbiblical division of divine law developed out of a humanist perspective that arose during the rise of catholicism. All of God's instructions are moral. Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Therefore, every word of God is moral law, has moral content, and is given to regulate the actions of moral agents.

I totally disagree. You are equating morality with simple demand to do something God said to do. This is not seeing what Paul taught about the natural shadow giving way to the spiritual. God did NOT demand rites and ceremonies like Feast of Trumpets to be kept identically as Israel kept them, but showed a spiritual reality through those feasts that we must grow to experience in our hearts without the outward trappings of the natural that he demanded in the Old Covenant. This is where legalism has a toe in the door.

This view I propose is from the New Testament teachings, not Roman Catholicism. People will find an excuse to physically require circumcision soon, if not already, because they reason that while sabbath day is indeed a shadow, we do not dispose of it to enjoy the body. And if one says that circumcision is not done physically any more, since the spiritual counterpart is what we replace it with, as Old Jerusalem is no longer the physical destination necessity to keep three of the feasts because the New one is not a natural place, then why not see that in sabbath, with a spiritual counterpart? You inadvertently replace SOME rites under Law with spiritual New Covenant counterparts, but not all. It's inconsistency. Why is the natural temple no longer standing? Because God wanted it out of the way for focus on the spiritual? Can't be, if we are meant to keep the shadow while enjoying the spiritual.

continued...

[mfblume]

...continued


It is being weak in the faith. It is being lost and ill at ease (speaking about rest!) to require a natural doing or natural not doing in order to carry on through rituals and ceremonies of specific calendar days and years, and refraining from doing or not doing, that slips in rabbinical Judaism rather than the real entity that Paul spoke about, being Lev 18:5's genuine and bona fide Law of Moses.

Every time that Paul dealt with the contrast of Law and Grace, he never introduced rabbinical judaism, but flatly quoted actual Law of God and spoke in CONTRAST TO THAT LAW. He stated that what Lev 18:5 actually was intended to tell man from the mouth of God was what cannot be done because of the sin in our flesh that hinders it, and GOD KNEW IT when He instituted it.

David correctly said that GOD HAD NO PLEASURE in animal sacrifices. This gives rise to the fact that God ordained ceremonies that He had no intention of keeping in place forever, and actually longed for them to be put away by the actual sacrifice of Jesus and all of the blessings that all the old covenant's shadowy forms only prepared for. How could God ordain animal sacrifices while having no pleasure in them?

I know the flesh can bend and genuflect and reach for conclusions and interpretations that pone wants to see, because of a mistaken interpretation of some single point in the Bible. But that's the hold that flesh tries to keep on us all. It will go to great extents to jump through hoops of taking any verse and doing some theological gymnastics to make them come out to say the opposite of what they really are saying. And all the while we are sincere, but sincerely mistaken. Anyone can convince anybody else of a certain persuasion of interpretation of a passage if the effort never stops.

If someone cannot see the principle of law being a schoolmaster in the sense that God ordained natural exercises and abstinences, never having intended them to continue into the new covenant, in order to teach man a lesson by way of Israel, that flesh contains sin and that sin will rise up and strike us down in our efforts to bring ourselves to the life that Lev 18:5 promised through works, they're missing the point. It' snot dosbeying God when a p[recept was intended for a time as a shadow and left for the greater reality instead.

When God demanded man refrain from the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and saw man disobey, he set forth generations later with the epitome of the knowledge of good and evil in the form of the Law and its 613 precepts. God could have brought Christ for Adam in his lifetime to die for our sins, but didn't. He wanted to teach man a lesson before grace would come, because satan already slipped the venom into our blood to think we can raise ourselves up to righteousness and not require God when we have ourselves. Just give us the knowledge of good and evil and we ill do that good and avoid that evil. THAT is what Law was all about in order to bring grace after 1500 years of that harsh lesson was finally presented, so that we would not say, "Thanks, but I could have done it myself." And then find us problematic later on! He had to rout that out of us. And He did it by Law.


So, you have a sabbath day requirement on the seventh day, not the fifth, sixth or third. And you have not one statement of God telling anyone to keep that day since Genesis 2, even when it was said that God rested in the context of Gen 2(!), between the time of creation and Moses. People ASSUME Abraham kept it, but such an important statement is not found anywhere before Moses' day?

We have a plain statement by Paul that includes every form of sabbath from the seventh day to special sabbaths, saying they are SHADOWS. Some know Old Jerusalem was natural and no longer an issue for the feasts, to give way for New Jerusalem which is not a physical place, but still keep the natural manner of keeping the feasts alongside the spiritual location, showing inconsistent and non-systematic theology. Paul actually stated that Christ is currently high priest and seated after having finished a work of NEW creation in THREE Days as opposed to six. And it is KNOWN to be the body of the sabbath day showing that we can come to Jesus for rest, while the Lord rests on the throne where we are invited to come and sit with Him under an easy yoke. But the seventh day and its ceremonial and symbolic purpose in very number cannot be bypassed even for a 4th day.

This is not a mingling of man's tradition and the New covenant. It's a mingling of Old Covenant with New Covenant. It's feeding on the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and then attempting to ALSO feed on the fruit of Life, which Genesis said was the enemy's next step in taking man further down. THAT is what the Galatians experienced, and not a rabbinical Judaism. Paul spoke not of rabbinical judaism when he said that Hagar was the Old Covenant that was given at the bona fide site where ONLY GOD spoke, not some false deity at Sinai, and noted it gendered to bondage. He did not say rabbinical Judaism's fusion of tradition and actual Old Covenant law gendered to bondage. He said the actual OLD COVENANT gendered to bondage.

One has to insert all of the rabbinical Judaism thoughts into these scriptures that speak solely of Old Covenant Law to arrive at these conclusions that demand things like "seventh day" resting. But in every case, nothing is mentioned in actual context except actual OLD COVENANT LAW. Abraham it's like saying that cannot be found to have been told to keep the seventh day, yet we claim he did. While people claim that Catholicism and Antinomianism are inserted between the lines of the epistles Paul wrote about the issue, it is not recognized that Paul ONLY and ALWAYS dealt with genuine unadulterated Law from God when he repeatedly introduced statements like Hagar's old covenant bondage or LEv 18:5's unadulterated demand to live by keeping law. One has to take LIVE away from the context Paul used it in when reading Lev 18:5.

A perceptual grid is a means of reinterpreting what we read due to having this gridwork inserted into our minds from a source other than the Bible itself. When trinitarians have been conditioned to think of God as a plural of persons, they can think of no other explanation for the word God than a trio of divine persons. This naturally-inclined concept of what Lev 18:5 meant by LIVE, and what Paul's conflict with Law actually was, as if it was rabbinical Judaism, is all part of a perceptual grid, for the bible itself did not say that in his epistles.

There were traditions Jesus addressed. I'm not saying there wasn't rabbinical Judaism. But Paul solely dealt with unadulterated Mosaic Law in his epistles in speaking of Lev 18:5 or Hagar's old covenant bondage-engendering.

We do not find a command for man to keep the seventh day before Moses or after his covenant in the New Covenant writings. And it is not my burned of responsibility to find averse stating what we must NOT DO, but the sabbath keeper's burden to show we must do it, because Paul repeatedly stated that sabbath was a shadow, like the temple and animal sacrifices were, etc., ad nauseum.

Acts shows us believers from the gentile world being directed to keep FOUR precepts from Law (Acts 15:20), and even ONE WAS innocent in and of itself, for one of them being meats offered to idols was later said to be merely innocent food that one could take so long as one did not offend a weaker brother by doing so, and instead doing it as unto ourselves. And sabbath should have been mentioned there. And we cannot stand on statements like Paul having a manner of preaching to synagogues on the sabbath to show seventh day resting. And we cannot say that it was pharisees being addressed when the apostles said NOTHING about tradition, but only referred solely to Moses' law. More assumption and circumstantial evidence. There are always these disclaimers, "But..." No. The statement was never made. Period.

I could go on and on.



Law appealed to flesh to make itself righteous, all the while to only teach a lesson that sin is in our flesh to awaken us to see how desperately sinful that sin really is.

I got my views SOLELY from the bible. Carefully analyzing the text. Same as my view on prophecy. Solely studying scripture has changed my view on many things. I propose that you cannot eep sabbath day sabbath if you went solely by the bible's teachings as an entire body. You have to insert rabbinical Judaism and assumptions of why God never told man to rest on specifically the seventh day before the old covenant and after it.

It reminds me of people demanding that Revelation is Literal and natural in describing the New Jerusalem, but insist there is symbolism in the seven-eyed and seven-horned in 5:6, after Rev 1:1 said the entire gamut was signifying by signs..

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

People are sleeping while you preach? 8-10 hours? That is some sermon bro.

Please forgive me for not correctly clarifying my remarks.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I had been reading this thread sporadically, so went back and read through the whole thread.
Many of the posts written in favor of Sabbath keeping are beautifully inspiring and devotional.

The best argument in favor of Sabbath keeping is that you can't dismiss the 10 commandments as being "the old covenant" and therefore done away with.
They are as Bro Avery says "The Royal Law"

If love is the fulfillment of the Law, then Sabbath keeping with it's concern for sacred time set apart for loving God and resting with family, friends, animals, and community seems like an act of love.
It is sad that our society doesn't take time to slow down for Sabbath rest.

Again, and I've just come to see this lately, where did we get the idea that if any of the ten commandments are always to be kept then they all have to always be kept, and if any are moral then they're all moral?

And this leads to saying it is moral to obey God, period. So, I give a perfectly equal example and use my response to it that we all agree on and say that animal sacrifices were required by God and are not moral obligations for us to keep simply because they were commanded at one time. They were fulfilled and now no longer in effect, same as SEVENTH DAY sabbath. It was a shadow and is fulfilled.

. And that is not saying to violate them, as such, for in the instance when the shadow of the 4th is fulfilled in the new's body, it is not violation. Who said the ten commandments cannot contain something ceremonial, just like the entire law itself was moral and ceremonial. Do we not find it odd that there is denial by some of any moral and ceremonial division?

The royal law is not the ten commandments and it is not the old covenant. Jesus' commandments are not the ten commandents, and that is not because He is not God. The same God that manifest ni flesh and became our sacrifice commanded animal sacrifices before the incarnation. So, we cannot go there. Jesus contrasted his commandments form both pharisaical inventions and ten commandments here:

Matthew 5:17-48.. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ..(18).. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ..(19).. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ..(20).. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. ..(21).. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: ..(22).. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ..(23).. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; ..(24).. Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. ..(25).. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. ..(26).. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. ..(27).. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: ..(28).. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. ..(29).. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. ..(30).. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. ..(31).. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: ..(32).. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. ..(33).. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: ..(34).. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: ..(35).. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. ..(36).. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. ..(37).. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. ..(38).. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: ..(39).. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. ..(40).. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. ..(41).. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. ..(42).. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. ..(43).. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. ..(44).. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ..(45).. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. ..(46).. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? ..(47).. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? ..(48).. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The God of the New Covenant became incarnate and issued commandments never listed in the Ten.

I am saddened that people miss the distinction and greater spiritual law, even stated by Paul and contrasted from the greater when he said that tree is a law of the Spirit of life, and James spoke of the law of liberty, with Paul also having stated that he lived by the Law to win those under Law, and not to serve God by law-keeping in and of itself, although noting he's not without ANY law for the Law of the Spirit of Law is another law that is greater and FULFILLS the natural commandments.

Getting what the natural tried to achieve, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life achieves in us! Why can't people see this?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

People are sleeping while you preach? 8-10 hours? That is some sermon bro.

LOL

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I had been reading this thread sporadically, so went back and read through the whole thread.
Many of the posts written in favor of Sabbath keeping are beautifully inspiring and devotional.

The best argument in favor of Sabbath keeping is that you can't dismiss the 10 commandments as being "the old covenant" and therefore done away with.
They are as Bro Avery says "The Royal Law"

If love is the fulfillment of the Law, then Sabbath keeping with it's concern for sacred time set apart for loving God and resting with family, friends, animals, and community seems like an act of love.
It is sad that our society doesn't take time to slow down for Sabbath rest.

Yes. Simplicity is key.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I understand I’m getting into this discussion late, so forgive me.

I’m not against anyone wanting to take certain days off for rest. And I agree with you Esaias as far as Jesus wanting to regulate our physical work, yet probably not in the sense you or I am meaning.

I’m putting this out there cause there maybe something I’m missing. Why did God give them the sabbath? I’m paraphrasing for space, God told them not to work, don’t gather food, don’t get your farm animals etc why? What’s the big deal with gathering food, or working, they do that the other days of the week. I believe, they just came from Egypt the place of bondage, the place where there was no rest, for over 400 years they were slaves. It’s a type and shadow for us, as we were slaves to sin we now have rest in the Holy Ghost our rest. He gave the sabbath as a reward, what’s our reward? I see the Old Covenant as our Old man, the New Covenant is our spiritual man.

Also...

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Is now

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.


Matthew 5:21-23
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;


Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.



Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


These are just a few examples we can go on and see where Jesus fulfilled what the law lacked. The law does not save us, the law allowed us to see who we are, sinners! Jesus told the religious order because the hardness of your heart Moses said to...

If your remembering the sabbath as a physical day that’s fine, yet don’t forget its the Holy Ghost.

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Our rest comes from the Holy Ghost. Many people especially in the church will sleep 8 -10 hours and wake up and felt like they slept 10 minutes, they have no rest. You can be at home and do no work and just rest all day, yet your weary? You can go fishing, hiking, hunting and you’ll find no rest. The only way your physical man will have rest is when your spiritual man is at rest. When your spirit is entangled there is no rest for the physical man, it doesn’t matter friend how many days you take off. Our rest is the Holy Ghost.

I haven't found the verse that says "the Holy Ghost is our rest"?

God threatened Judah saying He would speak to them via foreign conquest (stammering lips and another tongue) yet they would not listen. His message was was about rest, this is the rest, etc. Jeremiah however explained what that rest was:

Jeremiah 6:16 KJV
Thus saith the Lord , Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein .

Rest for the soul is found in "the old paths wherein is the good way". Rest is cessation of certain activities. The number one rest that people need is a cessation from fighting God. That is why rest and peace are so closely connected. It is an absence of war or enmity between man and God.

Now don't get me wrong, there can be no genuine rest apart from or outside of the Holy Ghost. But why is that? It is not because of some catharsis or emotional release, but because the Spirit brings freedom from the bondage of sin (disobedience).

As for the Sabbath day itself, God told Israel why He commanded it:

Exodus 31:15-17 KJV
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord : whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. [17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The reason given is "for in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." Sabbath keeping was a sign between them and God, it identified their God as the Creator of all things and thus the one and only true God. It was a banner if you will saying who their God was and to whom they belonged.

Some will say "Well then, it was a sign for those people, but not for me." However, the church IS ISRAEL. Not a new replacement Israel, but the same Israel of old, under a new covenant through Messiah. Moreover, this sign given to Israel is based on His work (and rest) as Creator of the universe, and since all mankind has one Creator, all should revere and honour Him. It was a sign limited to Israel by the fact only Israel worshipped the One God Creator and Father of all.

God expected the nations to learn from Israel and follow His ways:

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 KJV
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. [6] Keep therefore and do them ; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. [7] For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for ? [8] And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

He said it would come to pass:

Isaiah 2:2-5 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord , to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. [4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord .

Jesus gave this commission to the church:

Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephesians 3:7-11 KJV
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. [8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, [11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This includes the 4th commandment:

Isaiah 56:1-8 KJV
Thus saith the Lord , Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord , speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord , to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord , to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.