Why Sunday

[mfblume]

Tithemeister, I agree with your position, but we don't have to get personal about Esaias and say what the obvious implication is that someone is wrong. Obviously if we disagree we think they're wrong. No need to focus on the person being wrong though.

So, let's continue this with objectivity and keep it on the belief. Thanks, bro. I value your thoughts.

[mfblume]

I will add that the ten commandments are not the basis of the new covenant. In those ten happens to be an amoral one about sabbath. Just because sabbath is listed with moral commandments does not make it moral. Why reason that if we must obey some of them that we must obey all just because they're all in this list. Why cannot the list contain moral commandments and ceremonial ones? The law itself contained many moral things as well as ceremonial. And we do not keep the ceremonial ones, like circumcision that distinctly prefigured baptism. Why cannot that be the case with the ten. Only the sabbath was said to be a shadow in the New, not any others. Why cannot the Ten simply include something that would pass away for the body it foreshadowed, while the others would not??

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you!

The covenant, (which the Ten Commandments are part of, whether or not Esaias will admit it) is now the OLD covenant. The existence of a new covenant, made the one that contains the Ten Commandments old. That same old covenant is the one that was waxing old and decaying, almost two thousand years ago. Part of that old covenant (ten commandments) is the one that Esaias holds near and dear; to remember the sabbath. He refuses to believe that it has gone away. It’s sad. 😢

So Esaias would lead people (misleads people) to believe that I am confused. Because if I am not confused, then he is wrong. And he has too much invested in this doctrine to admit his mistakes.

That’s my opinion anyway.

By the way, I am one of those who believe that it is logical that the vanish away phrase is referring to 70AD.

If you think "Thou shalt have no other gods beside me" and "Thou shalt not steal" and so forth are ended, then you go get 'em tiger.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I will add that the ten commandments are not the basis of the new covenant. In those ten happens to be an amoral one about sabbath. Just because sabbath is listed with moral commandments does not make it moral. Why reason that if we must obey some of them that we must obey all just because they're all in this list. Why cannot the list contain moral commandments and ceremonial ones? The law itself contained many moral things as well as ceremonial. And we do not keep the ceremonial ones, like circumcision that distinctly prefigured baptism. Why cannot that be the case with the ten. Only the sabbath was said to be a shadow in the New, not any others. Why cannot the Ten simply include something that would pass away for the body it foreshadowed, while the others would not??

It seems to me that you are assuming the 4th commandment is amoral, which is also the conclusion of your argument. That's basically a begging of the question (it looks like you begin with the 4th commandment is amoral, then reason to a conclusion that it is amoral and therefore non obligatory).

On the ceremonial side, anointing with oil and laying on of hands were "ceremonial" acts under the old covenant (and prior, as well), yet under the new covenant there is anointing with oil and laying on of hands. There were washings under the old covenant, and a washing in the new (a real actual ceremonial washing, called baptism, and another for those who believe in and practice footwashing). Many actions that were spelled out under the old covenant continue under the new, with a fuller Christological meaning and purpose. Where that new meaning also creates a new methodology is clearly spelled out in the NT writings and also blatantly addressed in the OT writings (such as the transition of the liturgy from Levitical methodology to Melchezedek/Davidic/Christian methodology, especially as regards sacrifice nd offerings, the priesthood, etc). The prohibition against graven images is all about ceremonial ritual actions (venerating religious imagery, etc). The prohibition against taking the Lord's name in vain has its primary and immediate purpose to regulate the swearing of religious oaths - a formal ceremonial action.

So we see that several of the ten commandments contain liturgical, ceremonial elements which are inseperably bound to their moral content. It is IMMORAL to genuflect before images, even though such is a purely ceremonial act. Why is it immoral? Because it is immoral to disobey God.

Dividing commands into moral versus ceremonial or non moral is an unbiblical division of divine law developed out of a humanist perspective that arose during the rise of catholicism. All of God's instructions are moral. Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Therefore, every word of God is moral law, has moral content, and is given to regulate the actions of moral agents.

[Esaias]

The objection that the 4th commandment is ceremonial seems to be based on two things.

1. It regulates certain certain physical activities, like work and resting. However, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th commandments directly regulate physical activities as well. Bowing down to graven images, taking the Lord's name in vain, honouring your parents, adultery, murder, theft, and perjury are physical activities just as much as working, employment of servants, and assemblying for worship are. So any worries based on the 4th commandment being directed at physical activities can be disregarded.

2. It regulates time. However, the nature of the command requires a regulation of time as part of the command (since it is a command to honour Jehovah as creator by imitation of His original schedule of activity). The presence of a regulation of how we spend our time does not make it a "ceremonial, ritual ordinance that can be dispensed with in our new era of enlightened worship". It is a strange thing to suggest that Jesus doesn't have authority as Mediator and as Creator to regulate our time, or our work.

If God told you "Child, I want you to pray every morning before your feet even hit the floor", would it be a MORAL issue or a "ceremonial" issue for you?

[Esaias]

Circumcision?

Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised under the law unless they wanted to eat the passover lamb. So there is no "we don't have to be circumcised now" as if you had to be circumcised previously. If you were an Israelite under the old covenant? Yes you had to be circumcised. If you were not under the old covenant? No you did not have to be circumcised (unless you wanted to participate fully in the passover meal).

Although you DO have to be circumcised to eat the new covenant Passiver lamb, which is Jesus Himself. You must be circumcised inwardly, in the heart. Otherwise you can't eat Christ's flesh. That is, His death won't do you much good unless your heart is circumcised.

What happens when the heart is circumcised?

Deuteronomy 30:6-8 KJV
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord , and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Jeremiah 4:1-4,7 KJV
If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord , return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. [2] And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. [3] For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. [4] Circumcise yourselves to the Lord , and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it , because of the evil of your doings. [7] The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

Colossians 2:10-11 KJV
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Romans 2:21-29 KJV
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? [22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

These passages make it abundantly clear that heart circumcision simply means God causing a person to faithfully obey His commandments out of love. Nothing in these passages, least of all the one from Romans, indicates the 4th commandment is excepted or abrogated or otherwise not a part of that obedience.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The objection that the 4th commandment is ceremonial seems to be based on two things.

1. It regulates certain certain physical activities, like work and resting. However, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th commandments directly regulate physical activities as well. Bowing down to graven images, taking the Lord's name in vain, honouring your parents, adultery, murder, theft, and perjury are physical activities just as much as working, employment of servants, and assemblying for worship are. So any worries based on the 4th commandment being directed at physical activities can be disregarded.

2. It regulates time. However, the nature of the command requires a regulation of time as part of the command (since it is a command to honour Jehovah as creator by imitation of His original schedule of activity). The presence of a regulation of how we spend our time does not make it a "ceremonial, ritual ordinance that can be dispensed with in our new era of enlightened worship". It is a strange thing to suggest that Jesus doesn't have authority as Mediator and as Creator to regulate our time, or our work.

If God told you "Child, I want you to pray every morning before your feet even hit the floor", would it be a MORAL issue or a "ceremonial" issue for you?

Good post

[Amanah]

I had been reading this thread sporadically, so went back and read through the whole thread.
Many of the posts written in favor of Sabbath keeping are beautifully inspiring and devotional.

The best argument in favor of Sabbath keeping is that you can't dismiss the 10 commandments as being "the old covenant" and therefore done away with.
They are as Bro Avery says "The Royal Law"

If love is the fulfillment of the Law, then Sabbath keeping with it's concern for sacred time set apart for loving God and resting with family, friends, animals, and community seems like an act of love.
It is sad that our society doesn't take time to slow down for Sabbath rest.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The objection that the 4th commandment is ceremonial seems to be based on two things.

1. It regulates certain certain physical activities, like work and resting. However, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th commandments directly regulate physical activities as well. Bowing down to graven images, taking the Lord's name in vain, honouring your parents, adultery, murder, theft, and perjury are physical activities just as much as working, employment of servants, and assemblying for worship are. So any worries based on the 4th commandment being directed at physical activities can be disregarded.

2. It regulates time. However, the nature of the command requires a regulation of time as part of the command (since it is a command to honour Jehovah as creator by imitation of His original schedule of activity). The presence of a regulation of how we spend our time does not make it a "ceremonial, ritual ordinance that can be dispensed with in our new era of enlightened worship". It is a strange thing to suggest that Jesus doesn't have authority as Mediator and as Creator to regulate our time, or our work.

If God told you "Child, I want you to pray every morning before your feet even hit the floor", would it be a MORAL issue or a "ceremonial" issue for you?

I understand I’m getting into this discussion late, so forgive me.

I’m not against anyone wanting to take certain days off for rest. And I agree with you Esaias as far as Jesus wanting to regulate our physical work, yet probably not in the sense you or I am meaning.

I’m putting this out there cause there maybe something I’m missing. Why did God give them the sabbath? I’m paraphrasing for space, God told them not to work, don’t gather food, don’t get your farm animals etc why? What’s the big deal with gathering food, or working, they do that the other days of the week. I believe, they just came from Egypt the place of bondage, the place where there was no rest, for over 400 years they were slaves. It’s a type and shadow for us, as we were slaves to sin we now have rest in the Holy Ghost our rest. He gave the sabbath as a reward, what’s our reward? I see the Old Covenant as our Old man, the New Covenant is our spiritual man.

Also...

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Is now

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.


Matthew 5:21-23
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;


Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.



Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


These are just a few examples we can go on and see where Jesus fulfilled what the law lacked. The law does not save us, the law allowed us to see who we are, sinners! Jesus told the religious order because the hardness of your heart Moses said to...

If your remembering the sabbath as a physical day that’s fine, yet don’t forget its the Holy Ghost.

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Our rest comes from the Holy Ghost. Many people especially in the church will sleep 8 -10 hours and wake up and felt like they slept 10 minutes, they have no rest. You can be at home and do no work and just rest all day, yet your weary? You can go fishing, hiking, hunting and you’ll find no rest. The only way your physical man will have rest is when your spiritual man is at rest. When your spirit is entangled there is no rest for the physical man, it doesn’t matter friend how many days you take off. Our rest is the Holy Ghost.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I had been reading this thread sporadically, so went back and read through the whole thread.
Many of the posts written in favor of Sabbath keeping are beautifully inspiring and devotional.

The best argument in favor of Sabbath keeping is that you can't dismiss the 10 commandments as being "the old covenant" and therefore done away with.
They are as Bro Avery says "The Royal Law"

If love is the fulfillment of the Law, then Sabbath keeping with it's concern for sacred time set apart for loving God and resting with family, friends, animals, and community seems like an act of love.
It is sad that our society doesn't take time to slow down for Sabbath rest.

The moral law is all about love