Trump Crusade For Sodomite Rights

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I don't believe anyone is offended with calling out sin. I think some are offended at the notion of using earthly governments to persecute sinners.

I didn't know earthly governments punishing criminals was "persecution". I suppose those offended believe in the decriminalisation of everything, nothing should be illegal, whatsoever?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I didn't know earthly governments punishing criminals was "persecution". I suppose those offended believe in the decriminalisation of everything, nothing should be illegal, whatsoever?

Who said that nothing should be illegal?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Who said that nothing should be illegal?

It is a necessary inference from the proposition that "earthly governments should not persecute sinners", in the context of the discussion. You said some people dont want governments to persecute sinners. By persecution you apparently meant criminalising behaviours. I suppose you could have meant governments should never criminalise what God has deemed wrong, but are free to criminalise whatever else they want? But that would be even worse than total anarchy, it would be an institutionalised despotism of evil.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is a necessary inference from the proposition that "earthly governments should not persecute sinners", in the context of the discussion. You said some people dont want governments to persecute sinners. By persecution you apparently meant criminalising behaviours. I suppose you could have meant governments should never criminalise what God has deemed wrong, but are free to criminalise whatever else they want? But that would be even worse than total anarchy, it would be an institutionalised despotism of evil.

The Kingdom I am a part of is not of this world. Frankly, it doesn't matter what the world does or does not do. Every individual will answer to God.

I see this world as being in need of maintaining a balance between reigning in the power of earthly governments and protecting individual rights to life, liberty, and property. I see the idea of theocracy as being as much a danger as any other radical political agenda. It also does violence to the genuine Christian witness in that sinners begin to believe that every Christian desires to see them dead. That's not a winning strategy. Never was. And in the end, it only shows that the individuals who would use earthly governments to enforce their message are powerless without earthly authority. They have to do this, because they lack spiritual power to convict without the coercion of the state.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I don't believe anyone is offended with calling out sin. I think some are offended at the notion of using earthly human governments to persecute and execute sinners.

Chris, do you feel that convicts are persecuted?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, do you feel that convicts are persecuted?

Antipas.

But to answer your question, I believe some are. Some aren't. Many earthly governments have convicted Christians of crimes they didn't commit, or crimes that shouldn't be crimes at all. Being convicted means little in the way of actual "guilt" when men can be convicted wrongfully. Never confuse conviction with guilt. Many convicted of various crimes have been exonerated many years later. So when someone tells me someone was "convicted", it doesn't prove anything to me other than the state's system felt there was enough evidence to put them in a cage... or the individual feared the "evidence" could be interpreted to put them away for longer, and being innocent (or innocent of the greater charge) and afraid, they decided to plea bargain and accept a conviction for a lesser crime to minimize time behind bars.

So the terms "convicted" or "conviction" doesn't prove anything to me in a legal sense. It only points to a likelihood or possibility that one is guilty. We must never fall for the state's illusion that its "convictions" are 100% accurate, 100% of the time.

As Christians, we should pay taxes, pay respects and necessary honors to those in office, obey laws that do not violate Christian convictions and practice, but always remember... earthly governments are ultimately not your friend.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

The Kingdom I am a part of is not of this world. Frankly, it doesn't matter what the world does or does not do. Every individual will answer to God.

I see this world as being in need of maintaining a balance between reigning in the power of earthly governments and protecting individual rights to life, liberty, and property. I see the idea of theocracy as being as much a danger as any other radical political agenda. It also does violence to the genuine Christian witness in that sinners begin to believe that every Christian desires to see them dead. That's not a winning strategy. Never was. And in the end, it only shows that the individuals who would use earthly governments to enforce their message are powerless without earthly authority. They have to do this, because they lack spiritual power to convict without the coercion of the state.

Your philosophy of government is not Biblical, but is Enlightened Humanism (classical liberalism, libertarian, etc). Sounds great, but is the immediate proximate cause of the death spiral western society is in.

The proof is in the pudding. 500 years ago people were struggling for Biblical truth in various ways. Today we're struggling to secure the "right" to bugger your neighbour. The turning point? Enlightenment humanism.

Furthermore, it was brought in and promoted (by the power of the sword of earthly governments, I might add) for the express purpose of destroying Christendom, dechristianising western society, and enslaving nations.

Which, as we can plainly see, is exactly what has happened.

Liberalism has only "convicted" sinners of their pressing need to exterminate Christianity. And it has done that rather well, apparently.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your philosophy of government is not Biblical, but is Enlightened Humanism (classical liberalism, libertarian, etc). Sounds great, but is the immediate proximate cause of the death spiral western society is in.

It is written,

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Only those blinded by their desire for the power and authority of this world cannot grasp what "not of this world" truly means.

God controls the rise and fall of nations. The West is falling because God desires to allow it to be so. The notion that anything, including a theocracy, can save it would be like trying to put out an active volcano with a squirt gun.

And why would anyone want to give the state increased power to execute on religious pretenses... when it has clearly become wicked beyond measure? Don't you realize the state will corrupt even the theocracy you dream of building for it?

The proof is in the pudding. 500 years ago people were struggling for Biblical truth in various ways. Today we're struggling to secure the "right" to bugger your neighbour. The turning point? Enlightenment humanism.

Hmmm...500 years ago when prostitution, abortion, cannabis, heroin, opium, duels, beating wives, child labor, and many other things I could name were perfectly legal, and slaves were being shipped to the Americas and around the world to sustain colonist economies?

You're in a self-created illusion. And every era of human history has been more ugly than pretty. The reality of the Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. You can't point to it and say it's here or there. It's within you and manifest in the midst of God's people who fellowship in the Spirit.

When Jesus returns... every human kingdom will be reduced to dust. Even the lopsided, right-wing (or left-wing), pseudo-Christian theocracies that might exist at that time.

[Antipas]

I live in a Kingdom wherein there is no abortion or gay marriage as I type this. Never has been. Never will be. And upon Christ's return, and only upon His return, will this Kingdom be made manifest before His very presence, by His power, and imposed on all peoples.

Judgment Day.

[Michael The Disciple]

TK Burk said:

Where does Luke record any of the sins you mention?

Jesus mentioned Lot leaving Sodom. Jesus listeners were aware of what happened in Sodom. Even today when you mention Sodom, the public knows what you are referring to.