More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Here's something that I learned from a rabbi I used to talk to that attended my ex-father-in-law's synagogue. He once explained, and I'm paraphrasing:

"Chris, many people don't understand the purpose of the Law. In the law it states:

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

But why? Does God desire us to be bloodthirsty enforcers of morality? The same God said, "Thou shalt not murder.", and, "Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

Therefore, the Law reveals not only the wickedness of the adulteress, but also the wickedness of the one who gladly picks up a stone to kill her. It is the righteous one who says 'Wait a minute. I can't do this. I'm not better than this person. And this person is a human being like me, I love them. I can't throw the stone, God. I just can't do it.'"

When he said that, I was instantly reminded of how Christ dealt with the Law on that very issue...

John 8:1-11 (KJV)
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

When these blood thirsty religious fundamentalists were confronted with Christ's words, they each decided that their conscience wouldn't let them stone her. Love one the day. She was indeed admonished to go and sin no more. But even if she were caught in the very same act again, do we think Christ's response would be any different? Of course not.

So, what rises up in us when we read...

Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Does a fundamentalist spirit rise up in us that desires to harm them? Or, does something in us recoil from the thought of doing such a thing? For the Law reveals the sinful heart of everyone involved. Worthy of death, perhaps. But, I'm not perfect either. I'm just as worthy of death as they are. God forgive me, I just couldn't throw the stone. I'd want to help them up, brush them off, and say, "This really sucks. Let's all try to do better."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You know how many times I posted the list of abominations?
You never replied on which ones were abrogated. The OT is the Bible which Jesus, the apostles, and the early church used. My question to you is, were did they abrogate abominations and sins?

Um, yes I did.

I believe I even posted this before you presented your list:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=139

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1489492]

No, the Scriptures do teach:

1 Timothy 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Agreed, but in this context it can be argued that the modesty it is refering to is about not being elaborately decorated rather than about showing skin. Then people will argue how much skin can be shown. What are the lines according to scripture?

Every world culture is "perverted". Ours was strongly influenced by Puritans and other Christians, so we've had the benefit of a Christian influenced culture.

Bingo. that is correct. I believe that is why we have prospered to where we are today as a nation.

But even prior to our time we had slavery. Slavery was a hideous abomination in ways beyond the mere enslavement of our fellow man. Since slaves were not considered "human beings" they were subject to physical abuse, sexual abuse, and outright cruelty, without a second thought, even by "Christians" of that day.

I hardly consider slavery a cultural norm. Only the elite had slaves and that is very small number of the population. The horror stories of slavery are all that gets highlighted. I understand that many of the slaves where treated better then they would if they had remained in the disease and food scarce country they came from. We are paying for those sins at present in all the racial wars we are now having in our country.

P

rostitution was legal in the United States before being prohibited. This fed a sex trade long before the 1900's.

Which is probably going stronger today than ever.

Incest was also common. As was physical domestic abuse, which was legal in some states up until the 1900's.

The government was not so involved in people's homes back then. It never has been acceptable to abuse and molest your family. You say it was common, probably no more common than today. People that do those things don't ussually go around telling people about it. I don't consider this a cultural o.k.

All these things were a part of our culture from the beginning. It was just hidden in the shadows, kept in the closets, and sometimes even covered up by churches.

Sin has always exsisted I never said it didn't. These things you are naming where not the normal and they were shunned by most of society in the early 20th century. You are correct people covered these things up. Why because it was culturally unacceptable rather than acceptable.

I try not to get all caught up in the whole "my goodness the culture is becoming so perverse" thing, because our culture has never been exemplary.

Our society has never been perfect but at least people had more of a moral compass.

Homosexuality was just as common then as now, only it was not made so public.

I don't know where you come up with that seeing there's probably not any reliable stats. on hetero vs. homo before the 6o's.

I do have hope though. Before God can heal and address anything, He often has to get it out in the open. He has to have it shouted from the rooftops. We're talking more about it now than ever before. And, if we keep our discourse civil, loving, and compassionate, those in bondage to this sin who are seeking salvation can more easily approach us and be ministered to.

Overall I would say I have had zero homosexual converts. Some recent lesbians we invited to church told us that we don't want them at our church. It has become accepted as normal and the church is viewed as the problem by a fast growing minority number in our society. This sinful nation coming out the closet is going to find the judgement of God rather then the mercy if they don't repent.

God is in charge, and God works all things for our good, and so this seemingly unstoppable opening up about this sin may very well be the will of God.

What about righteous Lot being vexed by the people of Sodom and Gommorrow. I don't know about you, but I am not enjoying the direction this country is going in.

It's midnight at the masquerade and God is pulling America's mask off, and underneath there are sinners (big shock, huh?). We have homosexuals, the gender confused, the sex addicts, abusers, alcoholics, drug addicts, extortion, greed, adultery, fornication, murder, liars, lovers of money, and the list could go on and on. Instead of dishing up "hatred" we need to dish up "healing". Instead of confrontation and anger, we need love and compassion.

One word, REPENTANCE. If people will turn to God he will them, but people coming out with a pride about their sin is not the way to recieve their healing. I want to be clear, I try ministor to alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals. I care for the souls of these people, and so does God.But, if they don't turn from their sin they will not receive the restoration you are speaking of.

Your philosophy that we should just love the sin right out of these people isn't how it works. We are to love people, but we should view the sin as abomination. IOW, the sin should disguest us. Instead many supposedly Christians are entertained by people's sin on t.v. to the point they are no longer even stirred by sin. Its no big deal.

Frankly, our politics have turned us against the very people we're called to love and to heal. Many, if not most, homosexuals have suffered sexual abuse, sexual/emotional pain from failed relationships, lack of role models, lack of fathers and mothers in the home, physical abuse, and the list can go on and on. They have been ostracized by their families, friends, churches, work, etc. and they are pushing for acceptance so hard... because they think it will heal that pain. It won't. Frankly, if they got everything they are desiring today, they'd still be just as depressed and hurting as they were yesterday. Then tie in the possibilities of biological factors and predispositions to homosexual tendencies. It becomes a huge complex mess that frankly... only God can sort out.

I think the push for acceptance has nothing to do with fixing their pain. Its about making others agree with their sin.

I love gay people. They are precious in God's sight. No, He isn't pleased with their sin, but while we were yet sinners, God loved us. And I believe that God loves them too. I believe that God's grace is sufficient enough to carry the homosexual across the finish line.

?????? You think that person can be a homosexual and be o.k. with God??????

I believe that love covers a multitude of sins. I believe no one is hopeless unless the Spirit specifically impresses upon me to give up on an individual. God wants to see them saved and filled with His Spirit more than anyone can imagine. I believe that God would rather have them born again and struggling, born again and falling down to get up over and over again, even born again in a gay marriage (legally speaking), than lost in the wilderness and filled with a hurt and bitterness that drives them away from the cross... because there is a lion roaming that wilderness seeking to devour them.

Are you saying people can continue in their sins and be full of God's Spirit.

I know, I didn't used to talk like this. I used to beat the drum against them as though they were the enemy. But I found that not only did it drive more gays away from the cross, it also drove a watching world away from the cross.

The preaching of the cross involves repentance. The only way preaching against sin drives people away is if they reject the God who calls them to repent.

Many straight people who are lost pay close attention to how we treat gay people. And they are often offended and feel that if what they are seeing is "Christianity", they want no part of it. Many are discovering that they have friends, family, and loved one's who are gay, and our rhetoric on the issue has alienated them all from the church.

This political correctness isn't saving souls. Instead it is just allowing a sinfull world to be blended in with the church.

I'm not saying we should just willy-nilly accept anything and everything. Please don't misinterpret me. I'm saying... sinners are sinners. And they need God. I believe that God will have no joy in seeing any of them go to Hell. I believe that God is screaming to the gay community in the Spirit, saying, "COME TO ME! LET US REASON TOGETHER! THOUGH YOUR SINS BE AS RED AS SCARLET, THEY SHALL BE WHITE AS SNOW! I LOVE YOU! DON'T ALIENATE YOURSELVES FROM ME, I'M YOUR ONLY HOPE!" But they can't come to Him... if we're driving them away. We need patience, compassion, understanding, and grace. I'd treat a gay couple the same as I'd treat a couple in an adulterous second marriage. Both marriages are "sin". But wherever there is love, I'd like to pray there is something to be redeemed, even in the midst of imperfect circumstances. And God can work out the finer details and lead them and guide them as they learn the Word and are led through the Spirit.

Keep preaching repentance.

Also, I've learned that a lot of my own anxiety, anger, and negative emotions were robbing me of my joy and peace. And I discovered that it was all based on my desire to try to CONTROL THE LIVES AND BEHAVIOR OF OTHERS. I have learned that much peace and balance can come from simply allowing people to simply be. I have no desire to control gay people, shame them back into the closet, or control who they marry. You know, ultimately, they answer to God and not me anyway. I'm here to teach and share the path of Jesus, and what God intends for us on this path. I found that leaning on mercy and grace, is all I can do. I'd rather stand before God and be told that I was too loving and too forgiving, than to stand before Him and be told that I wasn't loving and forgiving enough.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Agreed, but in this context it can be argued that the modesty it is refering to is about not being elaborately decorated rather than about showing skin. Then people will argue how much skin can be shown. What are the lines according to scripture?

Why not allow each body to make that decision. If it isn't specified in Scripture, then we can defer to the churches to decide on their own. Certainly less skin will be covered in tropical locations than perhaps cooler environments. At some point we have to relinquish CONTROL and allow leaders (who are supposed to listen to the Spirit) guide their flocks.

Bingo. that is correct. I believe that is why we have prospered to where we are today as a nation.

Amen.

I hardly consider slavery a cultural norm. Only the elite had slaves and that is very small number of the population. The horror stories of slavery are all that gets highlighted. I understand that many of the slaves where treated better then they would if they had remained in the disease and food scarce country they came from. We are paying for those sins at present in all the racial wars we are now having in our country.

That's debatable. But I value those considerations.

Which is probably going stronger today than ever.

I was only speaking of legality. Even though prostitution is probably going strong, it's illegal in more states than not.

The government was not so involved in people's homes back then. It never has been acceptable to abuse and molest your family. You say it was common, probably no more common than today. People that do those things don't ussually go around telling people about it. I don't consider this a cultural o.k.

I'm just saying it was just as present as today. And it was far less talked about. So, it might have been even more common than we think. Things seem to fester in the dark.

Sin has always exsisted I never said it didn't. These things you are naming where not the normal and they were shunned by most of society in the early 20th century. You are correct people covered these things up. Why because it was culturally unacceptable rather than acceptable.

I don't know, like beating your wife. It was perfectly legal and men talked about it. The term, "Rule of Thumb" comes from the legal concept that a man could beat his wife with a switch as long as it wasn't wider than his thumb.

Our society has never been perfect but at least people had more of a moral compass.

I'm not convinced. Because during those romanticized eras we had child labor, Sufferage, institutionalized hate and racism, lynchings, rape shaming, etc. And it was pretty out in the open in many communities. I think that because of people being more open about sexuality in our day things are just more obvious. All those social evils I mentioned, along with the secret sexual escapades were all present in those eras.

I don't know where you come up with that seeing there's probably not any reliable stats. on hetero vs. homo before the 6o's.

So you think we're suffering from a wage of gay people? lol

Most gays who are coming out have been gay for decades.

Overall I would say I have had zero homosexual converts. Some recent lesbians we invited to church told us that we don't want them at our church. It has become accepted as normal and the church is viewed as the problem by a fast growing minority number in our society. This sinful nation coming out the closet is going to find the judgement of God rather then the mercy if they don't repent.

True. I've had a little luck with family and those connections through them. But in general, most are convinced that we hate them.

What about righteous Lot being vexed by the people of Sodom and Gommorrow. I don't know about you, but I am not enjoying the direction this country is going in.

I'm not necessarily "enjoying" it. However, I know it is going to get far worse. So I'm thankful that it's only this bad right now.

One word, REPENTANCE. If people will turn to God he will them, but people coming out with a pride about their sin is not the way to recieve their healing. I want to be clear, I try ministor to alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals. I care for the souls of these people, and so does God.But, if they don't turn from their sin they will not receive the restoration you are speaking of.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet. I'm not convinced we're going to get these people to entirely turn from their sin so easily. I focus on godly sorrow. If they can have humility and a godly sorrow, I believe God's grace can move in their lives.

The hardened "proud" gays... they can't come to God if they are proud of their sin.

Your philosophy that we should just love the sin right out of these people isn't how it works. We are to love people, but we should view the sin as abomination. IOW, the sin should disguest us. Instead many supposedly Christians are entertained by people's sin on t.v. to the point they are no longer even stirred by sin. Its no big deal.

If I let other people's sin disgust me, I'd be a man most miserable. I have to let go and let them be themselves, pray for them, and love them. They aren't going to change just because I'm disgusted and talking about my invisible friend being disgusted. In my opinion, that's just as arrogant and sinful as their pride. Think about it. Can you hear them? "Oh no! Aquila is disgusted! He says that God is disgusted too. I guess I better change my ways!" I don't see how that strategy could be a winning strategy at all. LOL

But loving them, giving them respect, and genuinely caring for them, now that will make them say, "Wait, you're a Christian? Why are you different? I had a Christian spit at me the other day." Remember, this isn't a matter of convincing people. It's not an intellectual argument. No wonder so many Christians are so frustrated. LOL The Spirit has to draw those whom God has chosen to draw. There is the inner calling of the Spirit at work in their hearts, and there is the outer call of our message. When the two come together, the sinner is confronted with a deep and stirring call to be saved that resonates in their heart. This isn't an "argument", and it isn't about intellectually convincing them of what we believe. Sometimes I wait until I sense the Spirit at work before I'll even share the Gospel with a sinner. I'll confess, when I do wait for the Spirit to confirm that He's at work there are better results.

I think the push for acceptance has nothing to do with fixing their pain. Its about making others agree with their sin.

I'm only speaking from my experience with the gay community. I've mentioned my niece-in-law. She's a lesbian and married to another woman. She's been disowned by her dad, her mom is dead, her church basically told her not to come back until she wasn't attracted to women, her friends freaked out when she came out of the closet. She lost a lot for just confessing what her sexual preference was. It made her very bitter and hurt for a long time. And it often manifested as anger. I've worked with her and she was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, she prayed and prayed for deliverance. She was suicidal. I told her to take a deep breath and just be herself. The church wasn't very friendly towards her and so I directed her to a more liberal church in our community (they have a charismatic wing). She's doing better now emotionally. She fell in love and got married and is at least praying and counting herself as a Christian, which I know many would mock, but I'd rather see this than see her dead. I do believe that all it takes is a little talk with Jesus. She might live her life attending this liberal church in town while married to this woman she's with... and before her death have a heart to heart with Jesus and be saved yet so as by fire. But as long as she's alive, God can move in her life as He desires. That's good enough for me.

?????? You think that person can be a homosexual and be o.k. with God??????

I think we're ALL wretched, sinful, vile, creatures that offend and provoke God's holiness. None of us are any worse than the rest of us. It's only through pure grace provided by the atonement and Christ's propitiatory work on the cross that gives any of us a snowball's chance in Hades.

Are you saying people can continue in their sins and be full of God's Spirit.

I haven't met a sinless Christian yet.

The preaching of the cross involves repentance. The only way preaching against sin drives people away is if they reject the God who calls them to repent.

If a repentant person has turned from all sin, then I have to confess... I haven't met a "repentant" Christian yet. Repentance is the word, "metanoia". It literally means a "change of mind", now by implication one's behavior should improve. But repentance doesn't demand "sinlessness". An old time preacher once told me, "Christians aren't sinless, but Christians sin less." Christians aren't perfect. We're counted as being perfect in Christ alone.

This political correctness isn't saving souls. Instead it is just allowing a sinfull world to be blended in with the church.

I guess I have yet to actually encounter a church. Because I haven't seen a church with sinless Christians in it yet.

The churches I've known are filled with rather imperfect Christians and hypocrites who would want to convince you that they're sinless. When I worked for LexisNexis at their computer helpdesk in Miamisburg, Ohio, I had plenty of church members as me to fix their computers. Let me just say this... I never saw a single computer that didn't have some sin on it. These brothers (and yes sisters) would shout and Amen the preacher about how "reprobate" gay people are and how gays can be saved unless they cease from their sin... but they were getting freaky on their computers at night. I've caught saints smoking, drinking, and even wearing clothes they shouldn't be wearing on vacation. LOL Let's get real. None of us are sinless and none of us are perfect. Oh, I convinced myself that I was sinless once. But looking back on it, I was a legalistic monster. Today, I'd rather be real and let the chips fall where they will, I'll do my best out of my love for Jesus, but I'm depending entirely upon grace. Because I KNOW I'm doomed if I pretend to be perfect when I'm not.

So, if imperfect people like me and so many others can go to church and depend upon God's grace... why can't a gay person?

Keep preaching repentance.

Amen. But if repentance means sinless perfection... I haven't seen it yet among any Christian (Apostolic or not) in my 28 years of being born again. Shoot, I'll confess. I'm not sinlessly perfect. I try to be the best version of me I can be as I desperately try to imitate Jesus, but I'm no where near as Holy as Jesus or even, Evang.Benincasa. lol

[Esaias]

The church has its own culture, as defined and shaped by Scripture.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Why not allow each body to make that decision. If it isn't specified in Scripture, then we can defer to the churches to decide on their own. Certainly less skin will be covered in tropical locations than perhaps cooler environments. At some point we have to relinquish CONTROL and allow leaders (who are supposed to listen to the Spirit) guide their flocks.



Amen.



That's debatable. But I value those considerations.



I was only speaking of legality. Even though prostitution is probably going strong, it's illegal in more states than not.



I'm just saying it was just as present as today. And it was far less talked about. So, it might have been even more common than we think. Things seem to fester in the dark.



I don't know, like beating your wife. It was perfectly legal and men talked about it. The term, "Rule of Thumb" comes from the legal concept that a man could beat his wife with a switch as long as it wasn't wider than his thumb.



I'm not convinced. Because during those romanticized eras we had child labor, Sufferage, institutionalized hate and racism, lynchings, rape shaming, etc. And it was pretty out in the open in many communities. I think that because of people being more open about sexuality in our day things are just more obvious. All those social evils I mentioned, along with the secret sexual escapades were all present in those eras.



So you think we're suffering from a wage of gay people? lol

Most gays who are coming out have been gay for decades.



True. I've had a little luck with family and those connections through them. But in general, most are convinced that we hate them.



I'm not necessarily "enjoying" it. However, I know it is going to get far worse. So I'm thankful that it's only this bad right now.



I haven't met a sinless Christian yet. I'm not convinced we're going to get these people to entirely turn from their sin so easily. I focus on godly sorrow. If they can have humility and a godly sorrow, I believe God's grace can move in their lives.

The hardened "proud" gays... they can't come to God if they are proud of their sin.



If I let other people's sin disgust me, I'd be a man most miserable. I have to let go and let them be themselves, pray for them, and love them. They aren't going to change just because I'm disgusted and talking about my invisible friend being disgusted. In my opinion, that's just as arrogant and sinful as their pride. Think about it. Can you hear them? "Oh no! Aquila is disgusted! He says that God is disgusted too. I guess I better change my ways!" I don't see how that strategy could be a winning strategy at all. LOL

But loving them, giving them respect, and genuinely caring for them, now that will make them say, "Wait, you're a Christian? Why are you different? I had a Christian spit at me the other day." Remember, this isn't a matter of convincing people. It's not an intellectual argument. No wonder so many Christians are so frustrated. LOL The Spirit has to draw those whom God has chosen to draw. There is the inner calling of the Spirit at work in their hearts, and there is the outer call of our message. When the two come together, the sinner is confronted with a deep and stirring call to be saved that resonates in their heart. This isn't an "argument", and it isn't about intellectually convincing them of what we believe. Sometimes I wait until I sense the Spirit at work before I'll even share the Gospel with a sinner. I'll confess, when I do wait for the Spirit to confirm that He's at work there are better results.



I'm only speaking from my experience with the gay community. I've mentioned my niece-in-law. She's a lesbian and married to another woman. She's been disowned by her dad, her mom is dead, her church basically told her not to come back until she wasn't attracted to women, her friends freaked out when she came out of the closet. She lost a lot for just confessing what her sexual preference was. It made her very bitter and hurt for a long time. And it often manifested as anger. I've worked with her and she was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, she prayed and prayed for deliverance. She was suicidal. I told her to take a deep breath and just be herself. The church wasn't very friendly towards her and so I directed her to a more liberal church in our community (they have a charismatic wing). She's doing better now emotionally. She fell in love and got married and is at least praying and counting herself as a Christian, which I know many would mock, but I'd rather see this than see her dead. I do believe that all it takes is a little talk with Jesus. She might live her life attending this liberal church in town while married to this woman she's with... and before her death have a heart to heart with Jesus and be saved yet so as by fire. But as long as she's alive, God can move in her life as He desires. That's good enough for me.



I think we're ALL wretched, sinful, vile, creatures that offend and provoke God's holiness. None of us are any worse than the rest of us. It's only through pure grace provided by the atonement and Christ's propitiatory work on the cross that gives any of us a snowball's chance in Hades.



I haven't met a sinless Christian yet.



If a repentant person has turned from all sin, then I have to confess... I haven't met a "repentant" Christian yet. Repentance is the word, "metanoia". It literally means a "change of mind", now by implication one's behavior should improve. But repentance doesn't demand "sinlessness". An old time preacher once told me, "Christians aren't sinless, but Christians sin less." Christians aren't perfect. We're counted as being perfect in Christ alone.



I guess I have yet to actually encounter a church. Because I haven't seen a church with sinless Christians in it yet.

The churches I've known are filled with rather imperfect Christians and hypocrites who would want to convince you that they're sinless. When I worked for LexisNexis at their computer helpdesk in Miamisburg, Ohio, I had plenty of church members as me to fix their computers. Let me just say this... I never saw a single computer that didn't have some sin on it. These brothers (and yes sisters) would shout and Amen the preacher about how "reprobate" gay people are and how gays can be saved unless they cease from their sin... but they were getting freaky on their computers at night. I've caught saints smoking, drinking, and even wearing clothes they shouldn't be wearing on vacation. LOL Let's get real. None of us are sinless and none of us are perfect. Oh, I convinced myself that I was sinless once. But looking back on it, I was a legalistic monster. Today, I'd rather be real and let the chips fall where they will, I'll do my best out of my love for Jesus, but I'm depending entirely upon grace. Because I KNOW I'm doomed if I pretend to be perfect when I'm not.

So, if imperfect people like me and so many others can go to church and depend upon God's grace... why can't a gay person?



Amen. But if repentance means sinless perfection... I haven't seen it yet among any Christian (Apostolic or not) in my 28 years of being born again. Shoot, I'll confess. I'm not sinlessly perfect. I try to be the best version of me I can be as I desperately try to imitate Jesus, but I'm no where near as Holy as Jesus or even, Evang.Benincasa. lol

I agree that Christians may sometimes sin. If that be they are to repent.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin we are to go to God like at the beginning (maybe even re-baptism), repenting of that sin and relinquishing the control it has back over us to God. If a Christian is a slave to sin then sin is their master and not God. If you are a practicing homosexual and are bound to that sin you are slave to it. You cannot have two masters.

You are saying that a person can live for God while willfully disobeying him. That is an oxy moron; to live for him, but disobey him. If you are disobeying God you are not living for Him. I mean no offence, but your lesbian family is lost. I am glad they are not suicidal, but if they think they are saved they have a false sense of hope.

God does not change. If God tolerates our sins then he is going to owe some apologies to Sodom and Gommorrow (obviousely that is not the case). God is no respecter of persons, if He punishes one people for their sins he will another.

1 Cor. 6:9-- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is pretty clear.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree that Christians may sometimes sin. If that be they are to repent.



If we sin we are to go to God like at the beginning (maybe even re-baptism), repenting of that sin and relinquishing the control it has back over us to God. If a Christian is a slave to sin then sin is their master and not God. If you are a practicing homosexual and are bound to that sin you are slave to it. You cannot have two masters.

You are saying that a person can live for God while willfully disobeying him. That is an oxy moron; to live for him, but disobey him. If you are disobeying God you are not living for Him. I mean no offence, but your lesbian family is lost. I am glad they are not suicidal, but if they think they are saved they have a false sense of hope.

God does not change. If God tolerates our sins then he is going to owe some apologies to Sodom and Gommorrow (obviousely that is not the case). God is no respecter of persons, if He punishes one people for their sins he will another.



This is pretty clear.

Believe it or not, we agree on quite a bit, though we appear to disagree on some things too. I'll elaborate in another post. But first, I have an honest question. Sin is sin, rather once in a while or more frequently. Guilty is guilty, whether one sins once or a million times.

I have an honest question:

Are you sinless? Yes or no?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Um, yes I did.

I believe I even posted this before you presented your list:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=139

You didn't answer me. You just posted a list of scriptures and then said all sin was an abomination. Therefore by your post, anyone crossdressing is sinning.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Believe it or not, we agree on quite a bit, though we appear to disagree on some things too. I'll elaborate in another post. But first, I have an honest question. Sin is sin, rather once in a while or more frequently. Guilty is guilty, whether one sins once or a million times.

I have an honest question:

Are you sinless? Yes or no?

Are you sinless?

What is sinless?

What is remission of sins? When does someone have remission of sins?

Will people still be sinning in heaven?

Do you still continually sin?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The church has its own culture, as defined and shaped by Scripture.