Obey them that have the rule over you

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

As they that must give an account...

It has long been believed that this means that pastors will have to stand before Christ in the judgment seat and tell Him how so and so in their church was; were they good or bad, easy or hard to pastor, and that somehow, this account will determine whether or not Jesus will allow the person so pastored into heaven.

Where is that in the verse?

That is all assumed. It makes my salvation dependent upon another man who is not my head to give a report to the Lord and either save or condemn me. That's garbage.

Let's be realistic. No one in the Body but Jesus Himself has that kind of power over a soul.

After all, maybe when I stand before the Lord in the judgment seat, I will give an account of how badly some men I know have pastored and Jesus will bar them entrance?

Thank you for bringing up the next part of the verse that is often used by pastors in the sense that they feel a responsibility for the souls they must "give account for" - of which understanding is completely false. Many pastors use this "give account for your souls" teaching to further demand obedience out of their saints, and what a lie from the enemy that is.

Here is our conclusion from our study on that particular part of the verse:

Heb. 13:17 "as they that must give account"

-- This scripture does not explicitly state who they will give an account of. Two popular schools of thought are: 1) they will give account of themselves and 2) they will give account of those they lead. Because this scripture does not provide any context to determine who they are giving account of, we must cross reference to other scriptures that mention giving account.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
['who' is referring to those who are doing evil things-- they will have to account for themselves]

--These scriptures are the strongest evidence that every man must give an account for himself. Therefore, these spiritual leaders must also give account for themselves and for their conversation (lifestyle), as every man must. This is motivation to be a godly example, also.

... "that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

-- It would make sense, then, that if a spiritual leader is living a godly example, they are able to give account for themselves with joy and not grief. However, if these spiritual leaders are not living a godly example, that would be unprofitable for fellow believers because they may lead others astray.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Thank you for bringing up the next part of the verse that is often used by pastors in the sense that they feel a responsibility for the souls they must "give account for" - of which understanding is completely false. Many pastors use this "give account for your souls" teaching to further demand obedience out of their saints, and what a lie from the enemy that is.
Here is our conclusion from our study on that particular part of the verse:

Heb. 13:17 "as they that must give account"
-- This scripture does not explicitly state who they will give an account of. Two popular schools of thought are: 1) they will give account of themselves and 2) they will give account of those they lead. Because this scripture does not provide any context to determine who they are giving account of, we must cross reference to other scriptures that mention giving account.
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
['who' is referring to those who are doing evil things-- they will have to account for themselves]
--These scriptures are the strongest evidence that every man must give an account for himself. Therefore, these spiritual leaders must also give account for themselves and for their conversation (lifestyle), as every man must. This is motivation to be a godly example, also.
... "that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
-- It would make sense, then, that if a spiritual leader is living a godly example, they are able to give account for themselves with joy and not grief. However, if these spiritual leaders are not living a godly example, that would be unprofitable for fellow believers because they may lead others astray.

Key words: "godly example".
AMEN.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I make some comments on "Obey them that have the rule over you" here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...-of-eisegesis/

and here:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...hip-deception/

The basic idea is as follows:

Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

Obey, from peitho to persuade or convince

Them: it is plural!

Rule, from hegemonai to lead, go before

Over: NOT EVEN PRESENT IN THE GREEK

Submit, from hypeiko to yield, give way

So what is the author attempting to convey?

A military structure where some give orders and some follow orders? Nope.

He is suggesting that people learn to yield to those who are able by lifestyle and demonstration of Godly moral character, to persuade or convince that whatever courses of action are proper.

There is no hint of expectation that a person must fall in and do what he or she is told. A person needs to be persuaded and out of a good conscience that what they are being told is righteous, yield to the influence.

But the obligation is ONLY present when the persuasion is right. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be persuaded just because. If you can't convince me by the Spirit and peaceable fruits of love that you know what you're talking about, then I don't have to yield.

Further, since "over" isn't even there, the whole idea that there are levels of hierarchy where some have to submit to others who don't have to submit to anyone, can't be proven from this verse (try as people do).

Lastly, the persuasion and convincing should come from multiple sources, not just one person. The Body, with the elders, should be able, if they are righteous and being led by the Spirit, to convince anyone of what is right.

But even if they try, and a person doesn't yield, it doesn't mean they get to pull rank and start making demands. There is no barking of orders allowed by the verse in the Greek.

[Lafon]

Here's the manner in which The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament (a word-for-word translation of the original writings) records the three (3) passages of Hebrews 13 wherein the phrase "them that have the rule over you" appears (see vss. #7, 17 & 24):

"Remember the [ones] leading of you, who have spoke to you the word of God, of whom looking at the result of the conduct imitate their faith."

"Obey ye the [ones] leading of you and submit to [them]; for they watch on behalf of the souls of you as account rendering; in order that with joy this they may do and not groaning; for profitless to you this [would be]."

"Greet ye all the [ones] leading of you and all the saints, greet you the [ones] from Italy."

As noted by Votivesoul, the word OVER does not appear in the original Greek manuscript, and neither does RULE. In each passage it appears the KJV translators have replaced "LEADING" with "rule over," which is NOT an accurate manner of translating the word "leading."

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Here's the manner in which The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament (a word-for-word translation of the original writings) records the three (3) passages of Hebrews 13 wherein the phrase "them that have the rule over you" appears (see vss. #7, 17 & 24):
"Remember the [ones] leading of you, who have spoke to you the word of God, of whom looking at the result of the conduct imitate their faith."
"Obey ye the [ones] leading of you and submit to [them]; for they watch on behalf of the souls of you as account rendering; in order that with joy this they may do and not groaning; for profitless to you this [would be]."
"Greet ye all the [ones] leading of you and all the saints, greet you the [ones] from Italy."
As noted by Votivesoul, the word OVER does not appear in the original Greek manuscript, and neither does RULE. In each passage it appears the KJV translators have replaced "LEADING" with "rule over," which is NOT an accurate manner of translating the word " ."

The ones who are, or should be, "leading" are they that evangelized the new converts...if
it be that they have also been truly discipled (taught how to work the ministry). We should
be with the newbies when they call, sit with them in the pews, and just plain mentor them.

Of course, it seems to me, most folks are only taught how to invite to the church, and then
handed over to the pastor. Purely unscriptural.

[Dante]

Everyone is so obsessed with authority and leadership. Get over yourselves.

[Scott Pitta]

I do obey my pastor, but he is no "dictator". He does not micro manage the lives of the members of the congregation. He is a nice guy who is underpaid. Most of my pastor friends are the same way.

I am not a pastor, but I am a Bible translator. No, I never use a Strong's concordance. Yes, I did take Greek on the college level. No, I do not have a favorite translation. For devotional purposes, I use a NIV.

I translate for fun. I translate for study. It requires a working understanding of semantics, textual criticism, Koine Greek, and a college professor to correct your work.

Be nice to your pastor and please be nice to the Bible translators.

[Abiding Now]

I don't have an original 1611, but I do have this.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I do obey my pastor, but he is no "dictator". He does not micro manage the lives of the members of the congregation. He is a nice guy who is underpaid. Most of my pastor friends are the same way.

I am not a pastor, but I am a Bible translator. No, I never use a Strong's concordance. Yes, I did take Greek on the college level. No, I do not have a favorite translation. For devotional purposes, I use a NIV.

I translate for fun. I translate for study. It requires a working understanding of semantics, textual criticism, Koine Greek, and a college professor to correct your work.

Be nice to your pastor and please be nice to the Bible translators.

Scott, if you care to, please take a quick peak at this site(5 min).....https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...BtsNAyDfxrOaHg

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Dante

Everyone is so obsessed with authority and leadership. Get over yourselves.

Some folks may be obsessed and feel today's modern ministry is trying to be too intimidating.
Personally, I am obsessed with bringing the Full Ministry back into the picture, as it was for
the Church at Pentecost. The Church operated at its best because the Ministry was at its best!

Lip service was not good enough for men like Peter, John, and Paul.