Would you stay in a church if...

[shazeep]

they are out there. i just happened upon one my mom found, just S of us... http://judahcc.com/ etc.
maybe God wants you to start one!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

We are instructed to maintain the unity of the Spirit until we come to the unity of the faith. Therefore there are some things which come over a pulpit that can be put on the back burner so to say.

The highlighted portion of your statement is excerpted from a "tradition of man" (composed by Witherspoon at the meeting in which two ministerial licensing agencies joined to form the UPC), however, it is NOT Scriptural! Indeed, it is far from it. Please allow me to explain ...

In the words of Ephesians 4:1-3 (NLT) it is written - "Therefore I, a prisoner for serving the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling, for you have been called by God. Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.”

Within the context of these passages Paul is speaking of the "unity of the Spirit" among brethren, sort of another way of saying the same thing he penned in the words of I Corinthians 1:10 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However, in the words of Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT) Paul is speaking of an entirely different matter, to wit: "Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.”

Do you grasp the different issues being addressed within the context of these two portions of Paul's writings? In the former he is referring to "unity" among brethren to the extent that it "mirrors" that of the Spirit, whereas in the latter he is referring to the "functions" and "purposes" of the various gifts which God gives to some members of the church which will bring them into a "unity of the faith." These are two distinctly different issues, and NOT as Witherspoon concluded.

Now if that was not bad enough, Witherspoon really went "off the deep end" and added this addendum to his Fundamental Doctrine Statement: "We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their differing views to the disunity of the body." That statement stands in direct conflict with Jude's admonition, to wit, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3, KJV).

I would rather heed Jude's words than Witherspoon's.

Also, unless one claims to have perfect knowledge of all things one has to admit one is still learning, and therefore a disagreement may be caused by one's own error rather than the church's.

Very true!

Can two walk together except they be agreed? Yes, in fact, but only so far as they are in agreement.

Christ Jesus said otherwise in the words of Matthew 12:25, to wit, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."

On a practical basis, I would say fundamental doctrines are essential, such as the unity of God, the Lordship of Christ, repentance and faith, baptism, the Holy Ghost, the reality of healing, resurrection and eternal judgment.

Sadly, many today, do just have you've done; fail to take heed to two “key” words the Hebrews writer used in prefacing the six elements or components which comprise the entire teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment” (Hebrews 6:1-2, KJV).

These two words are “principles,” or truths which form the very “foundation” of everything which our Lord taught. What happens when imperfect mortals, such as we all are, neglect to take note of these two words? Well, we begin to add to them, or change them in one form or another, just as you’ve done, and yet you classify them as “fundamental.” Admittedly, all of the things you stated as being “fundamental” are true, but they are NOT those “principles” which comprise the “foundation” of our Lord’s doctrine!

My thoughts about the matter.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume asked if you believe living saints would not die but be changed when the Lord returns. You indicated neither you nor your assembly believes they will. How does that square with Paul's words that say we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed etc?

It "squares" with Paul's statement which said that he was revealing unto us a "mystery." And, I might add, it is a "mystery" that few seem to understand, instead they would rather embrace the corrupt teaching which asserts that Paul was stating that "We shall not all die."

That is not what he said, however, it is one of those statements which Peter said were in Paul's epistles "in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (II Peter 3:16, KJV).

For me to explain the "mystery" Paul was referring to would demand another thread, for although the misunderstanding associated with Paul's statement is an important element of why I have opted out of participation in an institutionalized assembly and chosen a home group instead, the revelation of the truth of Paul's statement involves a lot of discussion and study to understand it.

I've tried previously on several occasions here on AFF to tender my understanding of this "mystery," as I am persuaded to believe the Bible reveals it, but because of others who want to engage in a debate about the matter instead of allowing time for the fullness of that revelation to be explained, I became weary and simply gave up. At the age of almost 76 I've heard just about all of the things that might be said how others have interpreted Paul's "mystery," so I have no interest in becoming engaged in endless debates about it.

Again, just some of my thoughts about the matter.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

you did not believe 100% of what is being taught is truth?

Yes. No one believes exactly the same as the other. There are a few core things I would like to agree on with my pastor.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

So you could go to a church and be perfectly fine with only saying AMEN 80% of the time?

If so, that's interesting.

I'm okay with saying it only 50% of the time.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

We are instructed to maintain the unity of the Spirit until we come to the unity of the faith. Therefore there are some things which come over a pulpit that can be put on the back burner so to say.

Also, unless one claims to have perfect knowledge of all things one has to admit one is still learning, and therefore a disagreement may be caused by one's own error rather than the church's.

Can two walk together except they be agreed? Yes, in fact, but only so far as they are in agreement.

On a practical basis, I would say fundamental doctrines are essential, such as the unity of God, the Lordship of Christ, repentance and faith, baptism, the Holy Ghost, the reality of healing, resurrection and eternal judgment. Other issues like the structure, purpose, and function of the church, the proper form and substance of the liturgy (the work of the assembled saints aka the "service"), the issue of headcoverings, prophecy, etc etc are things that each individual must decide for themselves after MUCH prayer and study, as to whether or not those will be determiners of fellowship.

For me, I could not be a regular member of a non Holy Ghost church, a trinity or two-ness or "Jesus is not God" church, or one where testifying and Spirit filled meetings are not allowed, or one that was all about money and entertainment, or a miniature popedom where the pastor and his immediate family run EVERYTHING and everyone else is just a resource for them... or one where clucking and barking are all the rage.

Oh and if the women have big blue hair tons of makeup and ten inch fake eyelashes...

You make some good points.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by Rudy

I don't think we apostolics are gonna make it. We just can't seem to agree on much. Very disheartening.

I hope soon I can find an assembly where people are letting the love of Christ shine through.

I'm very weary.

Same here.

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Is it possible to find someone that you agree with 100% with all the time?

Half the time I don't even agree with myself.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Absolutely not! And I don't, and won't, feeling NO condemnation in so doing. Paul's words of 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 "commands" me not to have company with those who do not preach and teach the SAME things which he and the other apostle's did! Aren't we to follow their steps? (see also 2 Thessalonians 3:6)

I agree. I don't see how people do it. Not saying this is the case with most people but to some people church is not about worshipping God in spirit and truth. It's a social gathering.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

And, yes, Mike Blume, every member of the group of saints of which I am a part, even serving as their Teacher, believe that Enoch experienced a common death. And NO, we do NOT believe in a so-called "rapture of the church," or that God would violate His guiding principle of "righteousness" by granting anyone an exemption from the judgment of death which was imposed upon ALL mankind through the corrupt "seed" of man's progenitor, Adam!

So, you do not sit in services pastored by someone else, or are you with a pastor and you do the teaching?

Anyway, being sticky to that extent over minor beliefs could very well bring the same measure meted back onto yourself. So, you better not be wrong in anything at the moment. Me, I know I am likely wrong somewhere, although if I knew where, I would change the belief, obviously. So, I treat the issue the way I want to be treated should I be wrong.