Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[KeptByTheWord]

I had posted this some time ago on the other tithing thread, and thought I would post it again here to continue the discussion.


I have been reading in Deuteronomy. A great book to read about the many things that God wanted the Israelites to understand in how to live, and love your neighbor. I came across this passage on tithing:

Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: And thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


I would like to point out some things in this passage for discussion:

1. The Israelite in vs. 23 was instructed to "eat of the tithe" himself, and his family before the lord, rejoicing, him and his household while he ate, including the Levite in their celebration.

2. The tithe was brought once every three years. Vs. 28

3. Every three years when the tithe was brought, the Israelite would eat of his own tithe, sharing with the Levite, the stranger, fatherless, and widow, so that the Lord would bless him.

4. In verses 24-26... Please note an interesting thing. If the Israelite could not travel with his abundance of his third year tithe, he could sell his tithe, take the money, and buy "whatever his soul lusteth for" ... Even wine or strong drink (!!!), eat or drink it before the Lord, both he and his household, and the Levite.

I would like comments on this as to how this tithing commandment could possibly be in any way similar to how tithing is taught today.

I can just imagine the shock and horror of most preachers today if one was to really fulfill the tithing commandment as taught in the OT... to wait three years to pay their tithe, and then because they felt they couldn't carry it to the storehouse, to just sell their tithe, and have a feast, calling in the fatherless, widows and orphans, and even using the money to buy wine, if his soul desired, and praising God for the wonderful benefit of the tithe!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I had posted this some time ago on the other tithing thread, and thought I would post it again here to continue the discussion.


I have been reading in Deuteronomy. A great book to read about the many things that God wanted the Israelites to understand in how to live, and love your neighbor. I came across this passage on tithing:

Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: And thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


I would like to point out some things in this passage for discussion:

1. The Israelite in vs. 23 was instructed to "eat of the tithe" himself, and his family before the lord, rejoicing, him and his household while he ate, including the Levite in their celebration.

2. The tithe was brought once every three years. Vs. 28

3. Every three years when the tithe was brought, the Israelite would eat of his own tithe, sharing with the Levite, the stranger, fatherless, and widow, so that the Lord would bless him.

4. In verses 24-26... Please note an interesting thing. If the Israelite could not travel with his abundance of his third year tithe, he could sell his tithe, take the money, and buy "whatever his soul lusteth for" ... Even wine or strong drink (!!!), eat or drink it before the Lord, both he and his household, and the Levite.

I would like comments on this as to how this tithing commandment could possibly be in any way similar to how tithing is taught today.

I can just imagine the shock and horror of most preachers today if one was to really fulfill the tithing commandment as taught in the OT... to wait three years to pay their tithe, and then because they felt they couldn't carry it to the storehouse, to just sell their tithe, and have a feast, calling in the fatherless, widows and orphans, and even using the money to buy wine, if his soul desired, and praising God for the wonderful benefit of the tithe!

3 years!!! You kidding me!!!, if you wait 3 weeks you are backslid these days...LOL

Now originally, my 1st pastor taught us that if you are late, you have to pay interest up to 50% higher than the 10% amount(starts at 20% and is compounded). 3 years would have made us spiritually bankrupt...LOL

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sean

3 years!!! You kidding me!!!, if you wait 3 weeks you are backslid these days...LOL

Now originally, my 1st pastor taught us that if you are late, you have to pay interest up to 50% higher than the 10% amount. 3 years would have made us spiritually bankrupt...LOL

Not to mention selling the food designated for tithes, and possibly investing it into alcohol. Dear Lord Have Mercy!

I would like to address those who say that there is a the lack of NT scriptural teaching "TO TITHE" in the NT, and the fact that there is similarly not any "DO NOT TITHE" in the NT...

The reason being for this is that the very heart of the NT pointed to GIVING... and was not based on a set percentage or amount, but "as the Lord has prospered you."

I Cor. 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Here we see Paul instructing the Gentiles to set aside on the first day of the week as God has prospered him to give to the persecuted saints in Jerusalem.

Giving was indeed a principle that Paul taught over and over... but you NEVER see him teach a set percentage or amount. The above scripture comes the closest to any NT scripture as to how giving should happen in the NT church.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Not to mention selling the food designated for tithes, and possibly investing it into alcohol. Dear Lord Have Mercy!

I would like to address those who say that there is a the lack of NT scriptural teaching "TO TITHE" in the NT, and the fact that there is similarly not any "DO NOT TITHE" in the NT...

The reason being for this is that the very heart of the NT pointed to GIVING... and was not based on a set percentage or amount, but "as the Lord has prospered you."

I Cor. 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Here we see Paul instructing the Gentiles to set aside on the first day of the week as God has prospered him to give to the persecuted saints in Jerusalem.

Giving was indeed a principle that Paul taught over and over... but you NEVER see him teach a set percentage or amount. The above scripture comes the closest to any NT scripture as to how giving should happen in the NT church.

Amen, with "Spirit led giving", we see a need, the Holy Ghost says take care of it, and we do it.(everyone's happy) It's that easy!

[Sean]

I might even tell the brethren to shave if the Holy Ghost says tell them!.....Just kidding Michael!!!(little dry humor)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Not to mention selling the food designated for tithes, and possibly investing it into alcohol. Dear Lord Have Mercy!

I would like to address those who say that there is a the lack of NT scriptural teaching "TO TITHE" in the NT, and the fact that there is similarly not any "DO NOT TITHE" in the NT...

The reason being for this is that the very heart of the NT pointed to GIVING... and was not based on a set percentage or amount, but "as the Lord has prospered you."

I Cor. 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Here we see Paul instructing the Gentiles to set aside on the first day of the week as God has prospered him to give to the persecuted saints in Jerusalem.

Giving was indeed a principle that Paul taught over and over... but you NEVER see him teach a set percentage or amount. The above scripture comes the closest to any NT scripture as to how giving should happen in the NT church.

Awesome! The Preachers RUN from the teaching of tithing that's actually IN the Bible. Eating your own tithe? Spending it for wine and strong drink?

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok as to my original intent concerning Deeper Apostolic Teachers.

Dave Huston Carlise Pa

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

Mark Nutting Lyons Wis

http://spiritoftruthchurch.org/

These are the two deepest I ever heard concerning foundation Apostolic doctrine. Dave Huston is a UPC minister. I have been to see him twice and have supported his ministry in prayer since 2001.

Mark Nutting teaches the Apostles foundation and is perhaps the strongest I know of teaching the truth of entire sanctification. He calls it "no sin". He is an ex UPC and does not teach the dress code standards.

[KeptByTheWord]

If believers were taught to set aside and give as the Lord has prospered them, without the Catholic-led doctrine of 10%... perhaps churches would grow in faith, love and unity as never before.

Pastors: Church is NOT a business. The believers of Jesus knew that the principles they operated on were held to a higher standard than the world around them. The apostles and disciples of the NT church were led by the spirit to give, support, and do whatever necessary to promote the kingdom of heaven, not to try and follow a business model of success.

I believe if the doctrine of tithing were done away with, that so many "hirelings" who enter the ministry looking for an easy living off tithes would be weeded out, and those who truly have a heart and deep love and commitment to the cause of Christ would be led of the spirit to lead their churches to greater unity and growth, and those churches would respond in kind, taking care of their pastor, giving as the Lord has prospered them, and not burdened to give a certain $$ amount. Even widows, and those suffering under poor incomes could dedicate their time and labor instead of $$ and still be considered worthy in the kingdom of heaven. Now, in many churches as it stands... the almighty dollar determines who receives the most accolades, from who has given the most... But remember Jesus - who spoke out in support of the poor widow who gave all she had, little as it was. To the Lord... it is not the amount that matters, but your heart.

Giving should not be limited to a $ bill... and certainly not just to "tithing" or giving of a percentage of one's income to the Lord.

Certainly the ministry should be supported by those whom they are entrusted by the Lord to lead and guide... Paul certainly spoke of the ministry working both with their hands, and being helped as well by the congregation. This is a principle that works.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok as to my original intent concerning Deeper Apostolic Teachers.

Dave Huston Carlise Pa

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

Mark Nutting Lyons Wis

http://spiritoftruthchurch.org/

These are the two deepest I ever heard concerning foundation Apostolic doctrine. Dave Huston is a UPC minister. I have been to see him twice and have supported his ministry in prayer since 2001.

Mark Nutting teaches the Apostles foundation and is perhaps the strongest I know of teaching the truth of entire sanctification. He calls it "no sin". He is an ex UPC and does not teach the dress code standards.

Thanks for the links. I did look into the Glorious Church, and have his book on my bucket list to read.

[KeptByTheWord]

MTD: I'm glad to see this thread get back on track