Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by houston

...and I will write MICHELOB over the door of this place.

Lol.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Christmas isn't addressed in the Bible, tithing is. To my knowledge no one makes Christmas a heaven or hell issue (though I'd bet there is an OP somewhere that does).

Why just OPs? Some Trinitarians preach against Christmas too

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

As a matter of fact guys. Open giving is not the pattern of N.T. saints. If we even give in front of anyone else there is no reward.....all giving must be done in SECRET, to be recieve an open reward....

Matt:6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



So much for our "marching" to the altar to give in front of one another every week!

No wonder the saints arent seeing their blessings openly!

I think you are missing the point

Mat 6:1 "Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Mat 6:4 so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Jesus is not saying you have to sneak around and covertly give an offering to your local church so nobody knows.

He was talking about charitable giving and announcing it to everyone.."Look at me! I am giving 10000 dollars to help feed poor orphans. Aren't I righteous?"

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think you are missing the point

Mat 6:1 "Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Mat 6:4 so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Jesus is not saying you have to sneak around and covertly give an offering to your local church so nobody knows.

He was talking about charitable giving and announcing it to everyone.."Look at me! I am giving 10000 dollars to help feed poor orphans. Aren't I righteous?"

Prax, I know clearly your point, but we just cant get away from the teaching of giving by the Lord about "secret" giving. Jesus introduced this "idea" of his to MAKE SURE giving does not turn into what you describe.

Why didnt he just say..."watch your attitude when you give"?

Notice that the rich in Acts that brought lands, went into a room and gave them secretly...case in point, Annanias and Saffirah....they just went into a private room to see Peter, thinking that they were going through the routine of giving to the Apostle when they were confronted about their sin

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

They condemn you to hell for not tithing... you condemn them to hell for demanding a tithe.

Can't anyone see that it is the very same sin?

The root of this issue is a failure to love and accept differing convictions... by both parties. This causes a division that is from Hell itself.

The only ones in danger of Hell are those failing to love one another... on both sides of this issue.

Again bro....If we "agree to disagree", nothing gets done. Should we then begin to "court" the other Christian denominations for the sake of "unity"?

What you are seeing here IS what the Apostles would have done, not "agree to disagree"....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

As a matter of fact guys. Open giving is not the pattern of N.T. saints. If we even give in front of anyone else there is no reward.....all giving must be done in SECRET, to be recieve an open reward....

Matt:6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



So much for our "marching" to the altar to give in front of one another every week!

No wonder the saints arent seeing their blessings openly!

Prax...please try to see what the giving method of Jesus was in the passage, Jesus actually taught this "method"....not just the attitude of giving He was trying to avoid.

[Sean]

All that said, it is counter productive to take public offerings, money rains on the altar and marches(which are intended to marginalize and intimidate).

We need to put safes in booths(like voting booths) in our lobby's and just ask those that can give to give secretly. They will love it because we are doing what Jesus taught verbatim. Then we can officially "guarantee" successful open blessings because we did it right.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, you have a handle on giving here, however, the tithe rhetoric should NEVER be mentioned during offering time. It always ends up as a threatening doctrine(you give them an inch, they will take a mile). Why do we even need to "suggest" to givers what they should try to give. If the believers and the elders are walking in the Spirit, you have nothing financially to worry about. The Lord will provide miraculously for ALL needs, nothing lacking.(just like he does for us as individuals). The saints need to get their head out of the Law and be taught how to walk in the Spirit. I have NEVER in 35 years heard a minister teach a congregation HOW to walk in the Spirit(or the definition of it)!!!...they are just told to do it.

Your are saying tithe rhetoric. We must teach about tithing in some form because it is Bible. You are correct that it isn't commanded prior to the book of Acts, but does that mean when I teach through the old testament I skip them scriptures. I agree with you when you say tithing is an old testament law that shouldn't be forced upon people or else, but the method of tithing has made a way for many to be saved. We have had several filled with the Holy Ghost in our church the last several weeks and I can say that people that tithe actually helped make that possible and I have already posted my approach to the subject. You may say just let everyone give how they feel, but unless you give someone examples a lot of times people will not know where to start. I am not saying I go around telling people you must pay tithes to go to heaven, but we must serve the Lord in our giving. I don't want to be guilty of not teaching about generous giving with old testament examples when many are just plain greedy. I don't teach the way I do for personal gain. I find my self pouring a lot of my own finances into people who that only not tithe, but they don't even give anything. If people were pulling the terminology out of the air I would say be strong in your belief, but they have built the doctrine of tithing out of the scripture even if you think it is misapplied. The act of tithing you your self say that isn't wrong. You said earlier you just go against those teaching it. I personally don't believe anyone has ever backslid or denied God because of this teaching even if it isn't a new testament teaching. If people turned and walked away from Jesus because they have to give ten percent they will never make it because really God requires 100%.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why just OPs? Some Trinitarians preach against Christmas too

Because were all OPs or former OPs.

I'm just an O not really a P.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Prax, I know clearly your point, but we just cant get away from the teaching of giving by the Lord about "secret" giving. Jesus introduced this "idea" of his to MAKE SURE giving does not turn into what you describe.

Why didnt he just say..."watch your attitude when you give"?

Notice that the rich in Acts that brought lands, went into a room and gave them secretly...case in point, Annanias and Saffirah....they just went into a private room to see Peter, thinking that they were going through the routine of giving to the Apostle when they were confronted about their sin

Sometimes you have to read the context, understand the figures of speech and see the message rather than isolate one verse out of context and go by that

Now, Acts says nothing about an empty room where nobody can see them

It says they laid the stuff at the Apostles feet

Act 4:33 With great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was on them all.
Act 4:34 For there was no one needy among them, because those who were owners of land or houses were selling them and bringing the proceeds from the sales
Act 4:35 and placing them at the apostles' feet. The proceeds were distributed to each, as anyone had need.

Remember the widow women who threw in her last dollar? Jesus and the Apostles all saw it.

I can give without letting anyone know the amount. It's still a secret.

If we take what you are claiming it means, then there can never be public prayer. We have to pray all alone...in secret

Mat 6:5 "Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Jesus was addressing an attitude. We see Public prayer many times. Even Jesus did not always pray alone