Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sean

Bishop, do you think that Peter and Paul had the attitude, regarding false teachers, that they should just "agree to disagree"?

There needs to be a distinction between someone who teaches a doctrine inaccurately and someone who is a false prophet. Simply teaching tithing is a matter of ignorance (or at worst greed). I don't think that alone makes anyone a false prophet.

Bishop isn't the enemy. Steve Epley isn't the enemy. They are brothers in Christ, thus while disagreement may be sharp, and the need may even present itself to "withstand them to their face" )as much as that is possible on the internet)--and I've called SE on some things lately, they should be treated as brothers. My siblings and I didn't always get along, but in the end we are all still family. The same with those who trust in Christ as their Savior. We may not always get along, but we are family (I'm speaking of those truly regenerate believers, not the masses of false converts).

Originally Posted by Sean

I have news for you....the information age is here. You guys cant keep us in fear of you and in a "dark age" mentality with "pope-ish" threats anymore.(the Lord WILL NOT hear your prayers against his church regarding any false doctrine)

Sean, you're making wish I wasn't on the same side of this issue you are. Tone it down.

Originally Posted by Sean

The next generation will end this doctrine and you guys will go down in the "hall of shame" when everyone exposes this false concept to each other. The saints will look back and say these forefathers "duped" the world and the church, and were still stuck in the "reformation".

I doubt the next generation will end this doctrine. Perhaps if the Lord tarried the church as a whole will see this as something to be dropped. But then again, its only because so many people on AFF view "the church" as the little movement that is oneness pentecostalism so they don't realize that actually the majority of Christians don't even believe in tithing, and there are many, many strong Bible teachers and commentators who don't believe in tithing. If we accept that the church is not the oneness pentecostal church, and realize that tithing is really only strong amongst pentecostal/charismatic groups, some Baptists (epsecially Southern Baptists) and Mormons, everyone else rejects the view that tithing is a requirement of NC believers.

But more to your point, the Reformers all dropped this doctrine. Reformed and Bible Churches don't teach tithing. Neither do Churches of Christ or Methodists or many others.

The problem is oneness Pentecostalism is 500 years behind the Reformers, they still haven't grasped justification by faith, much less dropped tithing.

[Sean]

8 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.




Guys, I know I am a little rough regarding this issue, but let me ask you this question....does the above passage exemplify the message you are hearing from the pulpits today?

Would Paul get kicked out of Pentecost teaching this to the pastors at Gen. Conference?

Would Paul come unglued if he was alive today and witnessed this "salvation tax" imposed on the saints and the world(as a stumblingblock before them)?

Let the reader be the judge.

If you guys think I am rough and unkind, just wait until the Lord of Lords confronts them at the end of their lives and walks them through all of the damage they did to the souls of the lost!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I was one of the first on the internet on Apostolic forums to come out against the doctrine of tithing. I still believe it was done away as part of the law. Yet for saints who pay tithes because they want to I respect that as long as they don't teach it as a part of the New Covenant.

What is stunning to me is how strong some are against tithing and yet approve and condone such practices as celebrating Christmas. Something that can be easily researched by way of internet.

It would be interesting to see how the strong attackers of tithing stand about Christmas. Do they take offence to the fact that men have made up a holiday and put Jesus into it fully apart from any direction of the Lord?

Christmas isn't addressed in the Bible, tithing is. To my knowledge no one makes Christmas a heaven or hell issue (though I'd bet there is an OP somewhere that does).

I don't think we're obligated to celebrate Christmas anymore than we're obligated to celebrate Thanksgiving, Easter, or 4th of July.

I do believe this is a matter of Christian liberty. If someone wants to commemorate the Lord's birth during this time, I don't see a problem with it. Christmas is both a religious (albeit not original to the early church) and a secular holiday. In our country it is much more secular than religious (the religious aspects are given lip service). But I don't see anything wrong with someone having a family get together at that time of year, exchanging gifts, and listening to some magnificent theology rich Christmas music (Hark The Herald Angels Sing has phenomenal theology). I love Christmas music (about Jesus, not about santa and Rudolph).

Again, i see it as a matter of Christian liberty. I don't think we are commanded not to observe cultural holidays as long as we don't have to sin to do it. Its not as if Christmas in 20th-21st century America and Saturnalia in 2nd century Rome are one and the same. The drawback to American Christmas is the greed, materialism, mythology, and commercialism. However the Christian is not obligated to observe these elements, and it is possible to observe Christmas without getting caught up in all those things.

So for me, Christmas isn't a problem.

NOW, if you don't celebrate Christmas, my question would be do you celebrate 4th of July? or Labor day? If you say we shouldn't celebrate Christmas, a holiday in our culture, do you have the same righteous indignation over other cultural holidays?

[Sean]

Jason, I know that you are not happy about my disposition and rhetoric, but the HOLY GHOST wants me to do this!

The Lord clearly wants me to confront these men as He see's fit.

The soft approach is not working. The Lord may start with a still, small voice, but He will use THUNDER if the SSV isnt being heard.

The Lord is NEVER politically correct...we are either truth teachers or heretics. There is no in between. We must be honest with the Lord and ourselves to be saved. No teacher will "sneak" into heaven teaching a lie....Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (notice...a lie is singular as in one lie)

[Sean]

Michael, I am a "bump on a log" at Christmas and Easter(FYI)....Im in your camp.

[good samaritan]

I have already been through this on another thread with Bro. Jason and I have revised my teaching on the issue although I still faithfully tithe. I believe we should show how they were commanded under the law to tithe of their increase of the land which was their lively hood. They were also commanded that every first born of man and beast were the Lord's and both these teachings preceded the law, but was not commanded until the law.

That being said Wouldn't it be a good place to start with your giving the first ten percent. It shows that you honor God and give Him thanks, and it also demonstrates trust that He is your provider. I don't begin to say that it is commanded under the New Testament because it isn't. I can teach generous giving throughout the New Testament without mentioning tithing.

I am concerned for those who are financially blessed but don't give minimum of ten percent. According to New Testament teaching where much is given much is required. If the Lord has blessed you abundantly than you should bless abundantly. Even the poor can give something and in the end God will judge whether or not we were led by His Spirit.

Tithing is a good example in the Bible that may be more important than what many here know. Although for lack of explicitness on it in the New Testament I will be careful how I teach it. I hope all of the opposition are motivated by biblical accuracy and not greed or animosity against the ministry that God has called.

I am not under the law but am led of the Spirit which I feel keeps the heart of the law only with a different perception. The law tells me not to kill but the Holy Ghost tells me to love which would keep me from murder and even speaking a word against. The law told me to tithe because it was God's way of supporting the poor and the old testament ministry, but the Holy Ghost tells me that I must support the ministry of the church today and be giver to those in need.(I feel like if anyone does that it will come out more than ten percent, but for sake of biblical correctness I won't say anyone must pay a ten percent minimum.) You can think about that and do what God's Spirit leads you to.

P.S. the key to being financially blessed is good stewardship and God. It takes both.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have already been through this on another thread with Bro. Jason and I have revised my teaching on the issue although I still faithfully tithe. I believe we should show how they were commanded under the law to tithe of their increase of the land which was their lively hood. They were also commanded that every first born of man and beast were the Lord's and both these teachings preceded the law, but was not commanded until the law.

That being said Wouldn't it be a good place to start with your giving the first ten percent. It shows that you honor God and give Him thanks, and it also demonstrates trust that He is your provider. I don't begin to say that it is commanded under the New Testament because it isn't. I can teach generous giving throughout the New Testament without mentioning tithing.

I am concerned for those who are financially blessed but don't give minimum of ten percent. According to New Testament teaching where much is given much is required. If the Lord has blessed you abundantly than you should bless abundantly. Even the poor can give something and in the end God will judge whether or not we were led by His Spirit.

Tithing is a good example in the Bible that may be more important than what many here know. Although for lack of explicitness on it in the New Testament I will be careful how I teach it. I hope all of the opposition are motivated by biblical accuracy and not greed or animosity against the ministry that God has called.

I am not under the law but am led of the Spirit which I feel keeps the heart of the law only with a different perception. The law tells me not to kill but the Holy Ghost tells me to love which would keep me from murder and even speaking a word against. The law told me to tithe because it was God's way of supporting the poor and the old testament ministry, but the Holy Ghost tells me that I must support the ministry of the church today and be giver to those in need.(I feel like if anyone does that it will come out more than ten percent, but for sake of biblical correctness I won't say anyone must pay a ten percent minimum.) You can think about that and do what God's Spirit leads you to.

P.S. the key to being financially blessed is good stewardship and God. It takes both.

Brother, you have a handle on giving here, however, the tithe rhetoric should NEVER be mentioned during offering time. It always ends up as a threatening doctrine(you give them an inch, they will take a mile). Why do we even need to "suggest" to givers what they should try to give. If the believers and the elders are walking in the Spirit, you have nothing financially to worry about. The Lord will provide miraculously for ALL needs, nothing lacking.(just like he does for us as individuals). The saints need to get their head out of the Law and be taught how to walk in the Spirit. I have NEVER in 35 years heard a minister teach a congregation HOW to walk in the Spirit(or the definition of it)!!!...they are just told to do it.

[Sean]

As a matter of fact guys. Open giving is not the pattern of N.T. saints. If we even give in front of anyone else there is no reward.....all giving must be done in SECRET, to be recieve an open reward....

Matt:6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



So much for our "marching" to the altar to give in front of one another every week!

No wonder the saints arent seeing their blessings openly!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, please understand. This is not, nor has it ever been directed towards the givers of tithes.(they have been duped). This is directed towards the teachers only.(for clarification)

And the teachers are not duped? They were not taught wrongly? They are not bound up in a system that could leave them homeless if they renounced the teaching?

The teachers are in need of the same grace, love, and mercy as anyone else? Why make an exception to justify a bitter and perhaps unloving spirit? I see your concern, but love will win over judgment.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Love you to brother, but you dont have to apologize for me. They must apologize to our Lord before it is too late. They will die lost for teaching this doctrine, or the Apostles will have to apologize for not including this tithing doctrine into the N.T. church.

They condemn you to hell for not tithing... you condemn them to hell for demanding a tithe.

Can't anyone see that it is the very same sin?

The root of this issue is a failure to love and accept differing convictions... by both parties. This causes a division that is from Hell itself.

The only ones in danger of Hell are those failing to love one another... on both sides of this issue.